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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Original poster

MW advising formula top up (6 day old). Agree with her rationale but reluctant...

45 replies

smackapacka · 02/12/2009 17:33

So here I am again - struggled for 10 weeks to BF DD1 2 years ago. Just had DS on Friday via elective C-section (at 39 weeks) and I just don't seem to have enough milk.

He's had unrestricted access to my breasts. My diet and fluid intake is good. I think my latch is OK. He has been co-sleeping with me (which I am not keen on for safety reasons), and he has still lost 10% of birth weight (from 8lb 1oz). He has had wet nappies but no dirty ones since yesterday, and now MW is concerned that my supply isn't satisfying him (becuase each feed is LONG and FREQUENT). I think I agree with her logic but on the other hand I feel it's very early days and that he is just stimulating the supply. How worried should I be that the last poo was 24 hours ago and was still meconium?

My DH bought Fenugreek togday but took it back after advice from chemist was that I shouldn't take it. I am going to BF clinic tomorrow and could ask about prescription for medication to increase supply, but just wondered if anyone else had any advice please?

There is formula in the kitchen ready to be cracked open if need be but I'm just not convinced my boy is suffering.

OP posts:
ArthurPewty · 02/12/2009 17:36

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StealthPolarBear · 02/12/2009 17:38

has your milk come in?

Original poster
smackapacka · 02/12/2009 17:38

Thanks Leonie but I don't think it will enter this house again as DH bought it from Health food shop and was advised to speak to chemist... he trotted down to Boots and was told it wasn't a good idea by a pharmacist. I wasn't there to hear first hand what the problem was, but I feel like that's a dead end now. He took it straight back for a refund.

OP posts:
Original poster
smackapacka · 02/12/2009 17:40

Stealth, I'm not sure. I think so, as I have done some (pitiful) pumping and it doesn't look like colustrum now but definitely not as engorged as I felt with DD.

I wondered if the sheer freqency of DS's feeding meant that there was never time for me to really FEEL a difference this time.

OP posts:
StealthPolarBear · 02/12/2009 17:44

What did MW say? Top up then what? Re weighing? Were they the same scales?

overmilkwood · 02/12/2009 17:47

I am so not an expert, but I never 'felt' my milk come in, nor could I really squeeze any out in the first week or so. DD just sucked and sucked and I had lovely MW who told me they hardly need anything at that stage, she was just sucking to increase my supply....which is now plentiful!!
Also aren't they meant to lose up to 15% of birth rate?

WilfSell · 02/12/2009 17:54

It sounds to me - though am not a MW or BF counsellor - that your MW is jumping the gun. If he is having wet nappies, that is a goo sign. Lots of babies poo erratically in the first days and long and frequent feeds are NO indication of levels of supply, satisfaction or anything really. It is NORMAL to have long and frequent feeds at 5 days old.

I think you should contact a trained BF counsellor for advice before making any decisions. Giving formula, especially if you lack confidence after your previous experience, is likely to further undermine your supply and your confidence.

You're not convinced your baby is suffering. Have you asked your MW whether she thinks your baby is and why? Shouldn't she be saying 'yup BF in the early days is like this and sometimes it can be quite a commitment until the supply settles down'? Instead of suggesting a top up...

Has she successfully BF herself, or if not, had some specialist training from people who truly know how it works?

SuWoombOfImmaculateConception · 02/12/2009 17:54

Fenugreek WORKS! So does domperidone/motilium which you can get on prescription if that makes you more comfortable. I took both, sometimes together.

Keep bf, in my experience the top ups are the beginning of the end. Hopefully Tik tok will be here soon.

Good luck x

ArthurPewty · 02/12/2009 18:05

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tiktok · 02/12/2009 18:17

smackpacka - shame you are anxious about this

The signs as you write them are enough to warrant an assessment of how feeding is going - by day six most well-feeding babies are producing several soft yellow poos a day and weight loss has stopped. We don't know if weight loss has stopped unless you have had an interim weight, but a useful rule of thumb is that in the first days a loss of up to 10 per cent is on the normal spectrum....some would say less than this, though.

You don't say how many times he feeds, how many 'sides' he takes each time - the best way to incease supply and intake is simply to feed effectively and often from both breasts. It may be you are doing this already.

Lonf feeds are not unusual - babies like being on the breast a lot, and this can mean frequent feeds - good! However, long feeds which don't transfer much milk are not good news.

Someone should watch you feed, really watch you, and check for milk transfer. You could try biological nurturing positions, which can help with a nice deep latch.

The midwife has seen your baby and if she advised formula, then it makes sense to discuss it with her if you feel you don't want to do this. It's entirely possible your baby has just got off to a bit of a slow start and is turning the corner but weighing again in a day or so would be sensible.
I don't know why the chemist said no to fenugreek - it's a well-known remedy, widely used. It's not going to be as helpful as frequent, effective feeding, but as far as I know, it can do no harm.

Is there a second opinion you can access about the breastfeeding?

tiktok · 02/12/2009 18:20

Just to make something crystal clear - erratic poo in the early days is not common, and is often associated with less than good intake. It should always be checked out - sometimes all is well, of course.

WilfSell · 02/12/2009 18:32

OK. I stand corrected. Thanks .

As I say, am only an eager amateur!

Original poster
smackapacka · 02/12/2009 18:38

Thanks everyone - really appreciate all your thoughts and advice. He's due to be weighed again on Saturday. The clinic tomorrow can provide domperidone if appropriate so the fenugreek idea probably isn't worth pursuing.

Stealth - the MW's idea was that he could be topped up to give me and my breasts a break and the supply would be rested and increased once he goes back on there. However, I think this is slightly flawed as formula would surely interfere with supply.

overmilkwood - she was OK with the 10% loss (and even staying there when next weighed), but didn't want him to actually lose any more.

Wilf - you've summed up how I feel about the whole thing. Not sure if she has BF. I don't think so, but then I'm trying not to hold that against her! I don't think she's implying that he's suffering - more that we're on a slippery slope, and that a top-up might just kick start everything back again (especially if I was prescribed something to increase supply).

Tiktok - many thanks. I am doing alot of feeding in the biological nurturing position and it seems to work OK. He does take both sides whichever position we're in though. As you say - "long feeds which don't transfer much milk are not good news" is my fear about what is happening.

I think I'll try and avoid formula tonight and then see what happens at clinic tomorrow.

My DH is worried that DS is starting to get a bit weak and weary now, and we do still have DD (21 months) to consider so I'm still trying to keep my options open.

I am so appreciate of all support and advice. Thank-you.

OP posts:
WilfSell · 02/12/2009 18:44

Think you should do what Tiktok suggests and get a BF specialist to assess your feeding. MW doesn't know much about BF if she wants you to 'rest your breasts to build up the supply' again. Unless she means something else?

If your baby is weak and weary though you need extra support and help. If the milk isn't going in well then it needs checking. And I guess in those circumstances, expressed BM or formula might be appropriate but in addition to lots of breast time.

Original poster
smackapacka · 02/12/2009 18:54

No she definitely meant 'rest your breasts to build up the supply' again.

He hasn't pooed for over 24 hours now so I guess it's starting to look as if he really isn't getting enough from me, and it's not just a mad MW myth.

OP posts:
WilfSell · 02/12/2009 18:59

Ring one of the helplines before you make your decision? You could do a lot in the meantime before giving formula. For example if your baby is weak and hungry and milk not getting in well, you could express a little and give with a cup/spoon/dropper/finger.

SuWoombOfImmaculateConception · 02/12/2009 19:06

That 'rest your breasts' thing is bollocks, tiktook told me after my midwife said the very same thing. You need to keep feeding as much as possible.

I speak as someone whose DS was hospitalised after losing over 20% of his body weight. I think it was that, he lost 20 oz in a week.

StealthPolarBear · 02/12/2009 19:21

oh dear to rest your breasts to buiild supply!

Original poster
smackapacka · 02/12/2009 19:27

Well in between all my typing/sobbing/feeding. I have admitted defeat. He is now guzzling formula with DH. That was after having a LONG feed from me, and about an oz of EBM.

I am hoping it is a short-term remedy for him - i.e he is hungry, needs feeding and needs to poo!

I also am so lacking in sleep that I'm in danger of falling asleep on him tonight or taking it out on him/DD/DH tomorrow (I suffered PND with DD).

It wasn't what I wanted to do, but I'll go to clinic tomorrow in the hope we can turn things around.

Again - thank-you.

OP posts:
Original poster
smackapacka · 02/12/2009 19:28

The lacking in sleep things sounds pathetic - anyone with a 6 day lod baby should lack sleep but I started to hallucinate that he wasn't actually my baby... Not good.

OP posts:
WilfSell · 02/12/2009 19:29

Hey. Don't worry about it. You did what you felt right.

But as suwoo's experience showed, you CAN still carry on. Perhaps the formula will help you all rethink the latch and get some help to check out the milk going in etc..

It doesn't have to be all or nothing, if that's what you want.

StealthPolarBear · 02/12/2009 19:31

you have noit admitted defeat, you have a short term plan to ease the pressure.
good luck at the clinic

ArthurPewty · 02/12/2009 19:36

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FuckerInYourHedgerow · 02/12/2009 19:38

Please don't listen to stupid gaar midwives. I topped up on their advice and it spelt the end of BF with DS. I ended up in a vicious circle of expressing and topping up with formula and he refused the breast as he preffered the bottle. I still miss bf'ing.

thisisyesterday · 02/12/2009 19:56

can i just say re: domperidone, it isn't something you should just take without knowing the facts
there are risks associated with it, including cardiac problems.

it is also usually only used when there is a hormonal issue causing reduced supply.
the best way to increase supply is by improving latch/increasing feeds etc etc

if you have a mechanical problem you need a mechanical fix. domperidone may increase your supply short term, but if there is a problem with the way your baby is getting milk it will merely cover that up