Any chance of a breastfeeding debrief?

[mrsjuan]

I have pretty much accepted that breastfeeding is over for us (DD is 6 months). I am still struggling to work out exactly what went wrong so I can avoid making the same mistakes next time.

Not sure if any of the organisations offer a debrief service & don't want to clog up their phone lines with a stream of self indulgent drivel so thought I'd chance my luck here! This is going to be loooong so don't feel compelled to read or reply

I wish I'd read up on breastfeeding before I started instead of limiting my reading to Gina Ford (which I realised wasn't going to work for us but still stuck in my head) and The baby whisperer (who's breastfeeding advice haunts me to this day).

DD was induced a few days early because she was measuring small. Birth wasn't too bad - quick ventouse because her heart rate dropped but she was fine and fed straight away. She was 5lb7 when she was born.

She slept a lot in the day for the first few days but I fed her every 3 hours as instructed by midwife and she cluster fed for about 6 hours in the night.

By day 4 I was feeling a bit shite (water infection & quite a lot of bleeding and clots) and knackered so DH was looking after her for most of the day and just bringing her to me for feeding. I think this might have played a part in things not going well & I should have kept her closer.

A week in and she was still cluster feeding all night eventually crashing out at 4am. I gave in and gave her a dummy and got 4 hours sleep. Also regret this.

Weight gain was reasonable - 4 or 5 oz a week but midwife had a thing about 'hind milk' and wanted me to keep her on one breast for 40 minutes at a time. In retrospect I think she was quite a fast feeder and this wasn't helpful.

I very rarely noticed her giving any early hunger signs - she never poked her tongue out so I never really knew how to feed her 'on demand' - I probably didn't feed her enough in the early days because I had the 3 hour thing so ingrained in my mind and was trying other things to comfort her because I didn't think she could be hungry (god I was so stupid )

By about 6 weeks she'd started getting really fussy at feeds & it was taking me most of the day to get her to have what I thought were decent feeds. We went to a baby cafe & advisor couldn't see anything wrong with latch and couldn't really give much advice. I tried to feed her more often but she wasn't very cooperative!

A few weeks of this & she was screaming at every feed-just wanting her dummy instead & getting very sleepy. Weight gain also dropped off to 3oz a week. Nappies were getting lighter and lighter.

We made it to 12 weeks before giving her a bottle of formula - she hadn't fed well all morning and was screaming but wouldn't latch on.

We went to an infant feeding specialist but she wouldn't even latch on so that she could watch a feed. The specialist suggested reflux which we had suspected (and were trying to manage without medication) and we got some ranitadine. This did seem to help her but I think by then the negative associations with breastfeeding were too ingrained.

I then started to express for her & we got by on almost exclusive expressing for another month. Latching got progressively worse but she was still having an occasional feed especially at night.

Gradually phased out expressing from 6 to 1 session per day and introduced more formula. She has really thrived & caught up with her weight gain. She's still titchy -I think that's the way she's meant to be.

Since she had a cold a few weeks ago she has lost her latch altogether so the only breastmilk she's getting now is a couple of ounces expressed per day.

I have accepted that I did the best I could in the situation but I wonder whether if I'd done my research I could still be breastfeeding today .

mrsjuan, it sounds like you had a really tough time, but well done!! she got loads of goodness from your milk, is thriving, and you worked so hard. you should feel really proud of yourself.

Well every breastfeed does make a difference, so don't feel bad, if you wanted to phone one of the helplines they would definitely be happy to discuss it with you I would have thought, you are also likely to get some insight on here which I hope will be helpful.

I don't think it's possible to know what exactly went wrong but you may get some insight into what is likely to have had an effect which might be helpful anyway.

What jumps out at me immediately is you beating yourself up a lot for things that happened very early on like your DH looking after her and the dummy to get 4 hours' sleep - these don't jump out at me as huge risks to take with breastfeeding. She was sleepy (possibly related to the induction - again though not necessarily a negative thing) but you were making sure she fed at least every 3 hours as the midwife advised so I don't think that it would have had much of an effect. I would guess that the combination of an expectation put in place by baby books and the unhelpful advice of the midwife re 40 minute feeds were the main catalysts - but that doesn't make you stupid, so don't think that! We can only make a decision based on the information we have at the time.

Thank you - yes I think the baby books have a lot to answer for. All I could hear in my head when DD was bobbing on and off every 20 minutes was 'day four - you will now begin your single sided feeding routine feeding every 3 hours'. How do they get away with publishing such misinformation?

I don't feel too guilty anymore - just annoyed with myself for not preparing better but that is in hindsight. I tried so much to get things to improve that I think in the end I just overthought it all and buggered it up by trying too hard if that makes sense?

I think you sound fantastic on 2 points:

1. You tried really really hard made it to 6 months
2. You have come on here (and phone a helpline - that's what they are there for) are doing this debrief rather than than getting bitter about it or despondant that it didn't work for you.

I'm sure next time will be very very different. In a good way .

Well done for getting so far with breastfeeding! It sounds like you had bad advice from the books and from the midwife, but even so, you have bf your baby for a significant length of time, longer then average, well done!

mrsjuan - any of the breastfeeding lines will be more than willing to listen to a debrief and help you work out what happened - it is absolutely part of training for a breastfeeding counsellor. You are not clogging the phone line!!

For what it's worth, I think it's not so much the books that affected you, but the fact that both these books reflect some cultural biases about babies and breastfeeding and some fairly deep cultural misunderstandings about babies and breastfeeding. So they did stick in your head more than they deserved to.

The midwifery help you had was poor - otherwise you would have got more information early on. Sometimes, very frequent feeding in the early days can be vital in order to 'calibrate' supply for later. Three hourly is not enough for this, for some babies.

You are right to accept you did the best you could in the situation and next time you will know better

You can feel good about the breastfeeding you did, and the struggles you had....but it's entirely understandable to want some insight into it all.

mrsjuan...remembering some of your previous posts, some of your issue was confidence and trust in the process and your baby's needs....that makes feeding a difficult thing to do as you are doubting yourself the whole time. You had some odd advice from the HV, too

You're right tiktok - confidence was nil & I desperately wanted someone to tell me 'how to do it' I just couldn't get my head round the fact that it would just work. That coupled with the fact that she was even smaller than expected made for a very anxious few weeks.

One thing that really made things click (too late unfortunately) was a visit to the orangutans at the zoo so I have coined a new mantra for myself for next time: We are mammals, not machines!

Mrsjuan - breastfeeding takes two to make it work and even then, it is biology not academia, so it doesn't matter how many books you read or how many pieces of advice you are given, sometimes it just doesn't work. You seem to have gone to incredible lengths to persevere with breastfeeding and, as many others have said, you should feel proud of that. If you have another baby, you should look forward to nurturing that child with the same love and care and know that if breastfeeding doesn't work, it isn't for lack of trying on your part.

Great advice here.

Just wanted to add that as you mentioned 'next time' that pregnant ladies are very welcome at La Leche League meets and Baby Cafes where there will be no end of interested listeners .

I don't think 'next time' will be for a few years yet but I'll definitely go to some groups to get well prepared.

Do please call a helpline. They will be happy to talk it through with you.

I agree with Tiktok that both of the books you mentioned are products of our society's priorities. We feel that a 'good' baby is one that has long intervals between feeds in some crazy 1950s nonsense and a 'good' baby is one that is not dependent on their parents but developing independent skills from birth in sleeping and self-soothing. For a nanny who writes a book from her own experience, breastfeeding just isn't going to be the priority. She had to develop systems to ensure breastfeeding and the comfort of the breast weren't essential.

When I was training as a breastfeeding counsellor I spent a lot of time on the babywhisperer forum. I don't know Gina Ford as well. The babywhisperer books contain so many inaccuracies about breastfeeding that there really should be some sort of health warning - the schedule for feeding in the first few days, the idea a baby of 4 months 'should' be on a 4hr schedule, that a milk supply can be measured by doing a pumping 'yield', that hindmilk switches on after X number of minutes...I could go on and on.

If I was a braver person I would make up a bunch of post-it notes that say 'NOOOOOOOO' and go and put them in the copies of all the books on the page that describes the newborn feeding schedule.

You trusted information you were given as so many new mums do. Of course you would assume baby books aren't allowed to tell outrageous lies and midwives are well-trained. I'm glad you feel you did the best you could in the situation.

My advice:

Never read a baby book, don't worry about weight and do what feels right, keeping in the back of your mind that little babies need frequent feeding.

Hard advice to follow and poor, poor you.

It will be easier next time, if you have a second, because you won't have time to reflect on it; you'll just put the new one one the breast (instantly taking them off when the sibling needs a poo) and never get time to get them weighed!

Back to the statement 'a good baby is one who self sooths'.

I hate the current books that suggest that a baby shouldn't get used to falling asleep because you might not always be there.

A mother should be there in the early stages...and no-one would ever dream of putting a three year old to bed without a bedtime story.

Plus, even if you only feed for 6 months, that's only six months of being there for bedtime.

Please someone get rid of this current advice...it's so unfair to little babies; not letting them fall asleep on the breast just incase they are still doing it at 5.

Builde that is so true - my mum only ever planned to bf me for 12 months, but she fed me to sleep until I was a little over a year and after that used to rock and cuddle me until I went into a proper bed and had bedtime stories. And she does think that babies can be manipulative and put me in my own room from day one whereas her friends all had their babies in the room with them at first - but she never did "sleep training" and would always get up if I did cry.

Also I don't understand why a baby has to "get used to" being without their mum - they have been inside you for 9 months, they are pretty used to being with you already, don't you think?

Six months is brilliant, like other have said you had some shoddy advice.

The one thing I was wondering about was the baby sticking it's tongue out when it wants a feed - I have never heard of this before? Is this something I've just managed to miss?

I had only heard the thing about where you stroke their cheek and they turn their head ie rooting.

the we-are-all-mammals orangutan story really struck a chord with me

I dragged myself (and dh and dd) through the early weeks with the help a tale of an MNer's mother who was left stranded with her newborn in dire circumstances far from HCPs, baby books and/or family support.
Her cat had recently had kittens, and when she was in a dilemma about what to do for her own baby (feed? cuddle? leave to cry?) she thought about the instinctive care of the cat for the kittens and asked herself 'what would Fluffy do?'

DH and I called it Prehistoric Parenting (and dd the Cave Baby), and it worked brilliantly for about the first five months, by which point we had learnt enough about dd to understand her a bit better...

Quite right mrsbadger. Instinctively we know what to do, we have just lost confidence in that inner voice for various reasons.

What would fluffy do is excellent advice

Yep - we would do well to remember that although we are socialised and have evolved into members of a society, conforming to that society's expectations (to some degree at least), babies have no idea of those expectations and are still stone age really, until they are older and more able to understand.

The sticking-out-tongue-to-indicate-hunger is also a new one on me - babies have a range of 'early feeding cues' and I suppose this could be on the list, but I would deffo not be 'waiting' for this to happen in order to feed, nor would I assume the baby needs a feed just because he does that

I think this one is another myth

I like the 'what would fluffy do story' too. It makes so much sense! Mind you, my childhood dog struggled to feed her puppies so perhaps the seeds of doubt were sown at an early age

Goodness knows where I got the tongue poking out thing from then - I've seen other babies do it since though. She used to literally throw herself at my boobs in the very early days which I thought was quite clever & fairly obvious but when she stopped doing that I never really knew when she wanted feeding particularly when she started fighting it.

I wonder if it would help to think of babies just wanting to 'nurse' rather than being hungry, thirsty etc - it would take a lot of the guesswork out of it

Right. I am going to pluck up some courage and phone a helpline while DD has her nap.

Builde - 'no one would dream of putting a 3 year old to bed without a bedtime story' - you'd hope not wouldn't you but I'm sure it happens.

That's one thing I'm so glad I ignored from the books-I have never once left DD to cry - have always fed/rocked/cuddled her to sleep and repeated throughout the night if she woke up.

Good luck with the helpline mrsjuan.

One of the things that you have learnt from this is that it sounds like you have quite fast flowing milk - so feeds don't last long - which will help for next time. No point forcing baby to breast if they've finished feeding just to try and reach a random time limit that someone has set. i have certainly never had to feed for 40 mins in one go (although cluster feeding is another story!)

I think you did a great job anyway