shocked at BF stats...

[LissyGlitter]

I had an antenatal class tonight that focused on breast feeding. I was perhaps being daft, but I honestly thought that about 99% of people at least tried (I mean, OK if it is not for you, but why not try?) but apparently it is only about 50% or so.

Everyone else in the class was really worried about doing it in public as well, again I thought only really shy people who had somehow never seen anyone else BFing would worry about that. I BF my DD for four months (until I had to go on medication) and it never even occurred to me to be shy about it, but then I suppose I have younger siblings and cousins who were BF so I know how subtle it can be. Also I do tend to be quite blase about nakedness and so on.

These are things I kind of understood happened, and felt sorry for people for whom BF wasn't familiar, but I thought they would be in the minority...

I also thought they made it sound much harder then it is, most of the talk focused on all the problems and made it sound really technical, surely they could just tell you the signs of problems and to ask a breastfeeding expert for advice? DD had problems and was an hour away from being on a drip, but a BF councillor sorted us out and then it was the easiest thing in the world. I remember BF walking around the uni library!

Also the DVD they showed was all of women feeding with cushions and footrests and with their entire boob on show, all in the exact same position. I know they need to show things clearly, and that is probably the best position, but it gave the impression that BF is some massive project to embark on. Also there was not one man in the DVD, they could have at least briefly shown a little family snuggling up in bed with the mum on her side, or a woman enjoying a brew in a cafe, casually wrapped in a cardi, and then revealed that she was in fact BF.

I asked about donating some milk to a milk bank, and the other women all looked at me like I was some kind of militant BF freak!

I have yet to experience the joys/trials of breastfeeding (I'm 40+3 at the mo) but the one piece of advice which I've had more than any other (and we all know how much advice we're given from well-meaning friends who are already parents) is that breastfeeding is much more difficult than you would expect.

No fewer than 3 different friends have ended up with their babies being hospitalised because they "persevered" as advised by midwives and ended up with severely undernourished/dehydrated babies who should have had formula LONG before that.

That said, my SIL and mum had great bf experiences and I'm hoping that I'll follow suit but it's important to know it CAN be very, very difficult for a myriad of reasons.

I don't want to be guilt-tripped into the purist bf approach if it isn't working, especially as I'll be sleep-deprived, flooding lochia and nursing nether regions that have been torn apart and sewn together again.

herethereandeverywhere: you say 'No fewer than 3 different friends have ended up with their babies being hospitalised because they "persevered" as advised by midwives and ended up with severely undernourished/dehydrated babies who should have had formula LONG before that."

No....what you are describing is poor postnatal care. These babies should have had their breastfeeding fixed. Any baby who is ill enough to be hospitalised has almost certainly not been breastfeeding effectively for some days. Any midwife who simply tells a mother to 'persevere' without ensuring the baby is transferring milk is probably not doing her job properly. Any midwife who tells a mother to use formula in the absence of trying to fix the breastfeeding (unless she has spotted it too late) isn't doing her job, either.

There are a number of ways to spot troubled breastfeeding before it becomes a hospital situation, and a number of ways to prevent problems like this from happening in the first place.

Good luck with the baby!

There are so many variables with bf. I found it very difficult with dc1 because he was a very fussy feeder and kept coming off the breast, then going back on (making discreet feeding difficult)and was feeding constantly (no exaggeration). I expected it to be even more difficult with dc2 because she was very prem and I'd been expressing for her for 10 weeks before bf. To my surprise she took to it straight away. I don't agree that it's always maternal factors that make bf difficult. I agree that there is a need to pre-warn mums that it can be difficult. I don't think that would lead to a lower number of women trying bf - and it might mean that those who try it and have problems, are able to keep going with some support.

Thanks Tiktok. I just worry how many midwives/HVs there are out there not doing their job properly. For one friend it all happened whilst her and her son were still in hospital (recovering from CS), another could only get an appointment with a bf counsellor a week after she made the call that she was having problems....as she has pointed out, her son would have been dead by then.

Sometimes formula feeding is the only way to retain your sanity if you're not ready to fight for a decent health service on top of all the other new mum pressures.

Agreed that it is a very tricky balance to strike: new mums need to feel that they CAN achieve successful bfing, but that they are not alone if they have problems and where to get help. Not to mention feeling that if EBFing doesn't work out that they are not a terrible mother!

nestafiesta I totally agree about the pain thing- I read so many books etc telling me that if you get the latch right bf 'shouldn't hurt' that despite 3 different midwives checking ds's latch I was still convinced it was wrong! Sometimes those first few sucks were toe-curlingly excruciating- it would have helped to know that this can be normal and that it would go away in time.

Interesting comments here....

I agree that too much info can be daunting.

My mother fed all three of us and - as a child - I was brought up to believe that all decent people BF and that dummies and bottles were 'common'. We were surrounded by BFing mothers where we lived and I don't think I ever saw a baby being bottle fed.

Therefore, it did not occur to me that BF could be challenging and I wonder if all the talk of BF counsellors make people think that is is a bigger deal that it is.

Now, as it happened, by first dd just crawled towards the breast within minutes of being born and we went from there. It does hurt a bit to start with and you do need a bit of support but mainly confidence. I actually found it easier to work out my own latching position.

My second dd was a less hungry baby and actually it hurt a bit more to start with. But, it worked out fine.

As for the modesty thing...BFing can be done very discretely with a shawl/jumper. I actually find watching a very young baby being bottle fed offensive! (Not that I would say this directly to the people I know who did just bottles).

And, it is worth while. My two children are never ill. The youngest has never seen a doctor. (other than her six week check). Plus, it's the only way to get a sit down!

I agree with op that it is shocking how many women don't even entertain the idea of BF. Yes, it can hurt, but so does childbirth, and not many people are put off by that.

As builde says, it is almost a cultural thing, whereby some people are just never exposed to BF, and think of it as alien. It was always just expected in my family too, and I never thought I wouldn't succeed. I didn't bother buying any AF parifinalia.
As to it being "common", well, that was my family's view too. IME, young working-class mums are not as likely to BF. (Speaking as one btw, before I get flamed.) Maybe if the government stopped giving out free formula to these ladies it might change attitudes. Low-income families have more health problems throughout their life, so surely the children of these families need the very best start. (Of course the help from HV & BFC needs to be there. The money saved from giving out milk vouchers could pay for this.)

Mothers are almost led to believe BF/AF is a tea/coffee type choice. It really shouldn't be. Sure, every woman has the right to decide, but likewise they have the right to choose whether they smoke or drink or take crack during pregnancy. We should naturally choose what's best for ourselves and babies.

We need a sea-change in attitudes of both Mothers and PCT's in realising how important this issue is for the health of our nation.

Sorry for the rambling, incoherent rant. V.tired.

Well said, crank, it's such a shame that bfing is less common among working class families. Ironic, too, considering the substantial amount of money saved by not buying all that formula. More needs to be done to make bfing appealing and achievable for all.

I was in the 'baby corner' of a toddler's group the other week and out of 4 of us, I was the only one still bf - DD was only 15 weeks and the other babies were around the same age or a lot younger.Hardly a statistically significant sample I'll admit but pretty depressing(especially as one of the mums made up a bottle on the spot with water that clearly wasn't at 70 degrees or above). The chat was along the lines of "So, what teat size are they on?", what milk brands ,etc.

I was also surprised to find myself practically apologising for bf "I was really lucky, she took to it like a duck to water, etc."(which is true, but I am currently in agony with suspected nipple thrush [3rd GP appointment in a week tomorrow]!) which was quite weird, like i felt i had to justify feeding my baby the most natural way in the world to avoid any suggestion i was criticising the others!!!

Beveridge I totally understand if you saw my earlier post round by me bf is extinct in 3 years of feeding I have only met one other bfeeder.

DD is 10 weeks now and I only started attending mother and baby groups a week ago because I get fed up of constantly justifying my bfeeding it is horrible you feel like you have to explain why you had it easy even if you didn't so they don't think you are being smug. When really you should be able to say well done me I felt so alone on ds but now I have found mn I realised I am not a freak for bf and that other women do try it.

Slushy06, most people I know over the years who have bfed usually stopped at about 6-8 weeks. I assumed things had moved on by now but I've been quite shocked that bf past this point is seen as so unusual. I went to a mums exercise class you could take your baby to a while ago when DD was only 7 weeks and she was a bit unsettled so I sat on the mat and popped her on. The instructor did seem quite surprised "Oh, that's one way of settling her!" which puzzled me (assumed there must be lots of bfing as the class was for mums with babies under 1. But now i doubt it).

A friend of mine was told at a parenting group that she would "have" to stop bfing her DD when she went back to work, even though they had already settled into a pattern of breakfast and evening bfeeds! And I was told the same because "otherwise you'd be out to here" (hello?supply and demand?or a pump?!). It's so depressing that it's assumed bf is seen as an added extra to the 'norm' of FF and that it can and should be dispensed with if less than convenient

tbh I'm not shocked by just how many mums formula feed. What does shock me is the number of mums who smoke (in pregnancy and when babies are very small). I don't mean it in a judgemental way but it does really shock me.

Apparently, a lot of mums who smoke in pregnancy continue to do it because they think it will give them a small baby (which is likely) and therefore an easier labour. Scary indeed. But nicotine is allegedly more addictive than heroin and if their parents smoked, it's easy to use the 'Well, I turned out alright' argument.

I think it is a society thing too. My two attempts so far at public feeding have been a disaster- he pulls off so much I exposed myself to a whole cafe! And got comments.

My mum makes me go upstairs to do it!

This is an interesting thread I'd like to discuss another tangent

I've managed to feed my DD for exclusively until this week - she is 6.5months and also weaning now I feel very pleased as it was hugely difficult at the start. Partly for the reasons mentioned already- painful even when positioned right, very painful letdown, embarrassment in public - all of these things improved 100x and now I'd feed my DD anywhere (and I have!) and nothing hurts (except for when she uses her sharp little teeth )

However the big thing that nearly broke this for me was the relationship impact- which seems to be rarely discussed.

While it seems commonsense in hindsight, neither DH or myself had expected BFing to be so exclusive to DD and myself. After a long birth I was very exhausted and gave all i had to DD to get feeding started. DH coudnt help with that and I couldnt give him anything back, I was a robot and any other energy I had went on seeing my NCT friends who could empathise.

He clearly was hurt and upset by all this and at every issue suggested formula so he could help me out. As I was so determined to breastfeed exlusively this caused enormous conflict. He wasnt being childish (not most of the time anyway ) but I was in pain, crying, exhausted and he saw the solution as formula. I think more discussion and understanding before hand could have prepared us better for this. Unfortunately one of our NCT BF sessions sent the men so they missed out somewhat!

Secondly as time has gone on the constant feeding, pumping etc is has not made me feel attractive and it has not been helpful to my relationship that is very changed after childbirth , again not sure how we could have been prepared for this but I feel that all these things together have made serious impact on my relationship that only time will tell if they can mend after I stop feeding.

I know its not like this for everyone- but for me and DH it was hard and has made huge impact - if I was less stubborn I'd have given up breastfeeding for this reason.

Sorry for the tangent but this is an issue close to my heart and I wonder whether this is considered on the part of BF counsellors.

I'm sorry to hear that Gyo I hope things sort themselves out between you and your DH.

It's interesting that your NCT bfing session was women only. Our one was very much aimed at both partners- stressing how important a suuportive dp is for successful bfing (bringing drinks, food etc, emotional support, helping with positioning, giving mum a break between feeds). I think this really helped as despite dp getting upset when I've been in a lot of pain and sometimes feeling a bit left out, he's still very pro bfing.

It's a shame your NCT session wasn't done like ours was. Well done on doing so well with bfing and good luck with your relationship with dh.

There are different ways that NCT does the bf session. Sometimes, it's deliberately women only - this can have the advantage that women who have concerns about their shape, size of nipples and so on may feel ok about sharing in a women-only group. On the other hand, keeping both sexes together means the men get to understand more about the experience. And on the other hand again, separating them for some of the session allows for a smaller discussion about how the men can support, and what sort of support the women might like to have - and they come back together to share notes.

Probably the case that different individuals will be suited to diff. approaches.

To be honest, I don't think one antenatal session, however it could be done, would resolve the several later and fairly major emotional and relationship challenges, such as the ones you describe, GYo. That's best done in private, with communication between you, and maybe some reading and thinking...a breastfeeding counsellor would be able to help here, and suggest ways forward. But I don't think a class would be the way to prevent any of this, sorry.

Bfcs do know and think carefully about the impact on relationships of bf, but there would be no way of doing anything but acknowledging it a little in a single antenatal class. In any case it's not just about the feeding is it....?

NCT's postnatal groups - the discussion ones, not the coffee groups - tackle these issues very well, in my experience, though. Maybe there is a group near you, GYo?

Thanks. You are right TikTok. One class wouldnt have helped this. I did do a lot of reading and no where did it suggest that BF was a challenge to a relationship.

We did actually have option of keeping the men in for the 2nd session. My DH wanted to stay but didnt want to be the only one not going to pub with the men and only man in women only session.

I did seek advice of a lactation consultant (not NCT or NHS) as DD wasnt gaining wt properly and I tried to talk to her about r'ship issues as I was so upset at the time and she didnt even reply to my questions as they involved the word formula which she hugely disapproved of. I wasnt after using it but I was trying to talk to her about the impact of me doing a babymoon type thing on DH and him wanting to use formula as a solution.

I just wonder if it could be discussed generally in a class at the same time as the bit about the number of hours in the day and how they are filled by a baby! It could provide food for thought for the parents to be. Having said that, I can recall being so focussed on getting the baby out/ labour that the bit afterwards wasnt going in to my brain anyway

I might look into discussing these issues myself but I know DH wont want to.

Would a BF counsellor speak to me alone? It might help me park some of this.

Sorry for thread hijack Lissy

I agree that there is not much written specifically about bf and relationships, apart from suggesting ways the man can support the woman....but there are books about early postnatal life and relationships, and bf comes into this....they might help. You could look at

www.amazon.co.uk/What-Mothers-Do-Especially-Nothing/dp/0749926201/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=125 4916989&sr=8-1

www.amazon.co.uk/Lifes-Work-Rachel-Cusk/dp/0571238491/ref=pd_sim_b_16

www.amazon.co.uk/Making-Babies-Stumbling-into-Motherhood/dp/0099437627/ref=pd_bxgy_b_text_b

www.amazon.co.uk/Life-After-Birth-Kate-Figes/dp/1844084663/ref=pd_sim_b_25

Yes, a breastfeeding counsellor would talk to you - try any of the helplines, and explain you may need longer than a 'normal' call. It's part of our training and experience to support mothers working through the impact of bf on all aspects of life, inc their closest relationships. I expect some of us are better at this than others so if you don't 'click' with the first person try again

If your dh won't even discuss these issues, though, which are so important and overwhelming to you, then there is something more going on, and the feeding thing just happens to be the focus....wouldn't you say?

Hope this helps.