I need help :( (very long sorry)

[LittleCheese]

DD2 is 2 days old and i really want more than anything to breast feed her, but im having some issues.

On Monday she latched straight on within 15 mins of being born and "fed" for an hour, then again in the hospital a couple of hours later for about 40mins

I really dont remember if at the time feeding hurt, the midwife said she was latched on perfectly. Since getting home on monday lunch time I did notice a couple of inflamed sore patches on nipples so just moisturised lots.

from feeding at around 11 in the morning on monday she then didnt feed again until 10.30pm and wanted feeding every hour until 3.30am. I managed 3 breast feeds at which point my nipples were in agony and my stomach felt like i was in labour again so DH did next 3 feeds with bottle of formula (2oz over 3 feeds)

She then slept until 6.30am at which point she fed 2 hourly until 10.30 all breast feeds.

didnt feed again until 4.30pm when midwife was round, midwife again assured me that she was latched correctly and it shouldn't hurt. Whilst she was feeding it was fine and she had breast feeds at 4.30pm and 5.30pm after feeding i was in agony it doesnt seem to be dry or cracked skin more tender nipples, even clothing brushing them is painful

her last 4 feeds have been bottle as my nipples are so sore for me to even consider getting her latch to on, i now feel like my dream of breast feeding her is going out of the window and the longer my nipples take to recover the less likely ill be to get her on the breast

Thank you if you have managed to read my monster of a post any advice is welcome i feel pretty rubbish about feeding right now

nicknames - there is no friction involved in normal removal of milk from the breast. Yes, pain is common; yes, some women experience pain for which there is no clear cause; yes, let down pain happens very rarely.

I am an NCT breastfeeding counsellor. I am aware of what we say - the factsheet is correct, and in no way undermines what I am saying.

I am not saying 'breastfeeding does not hurt'. Many, many women have no pain of any sort from the very start of breastfeeding, however, and it is not inevitable at all. Promoting the idea of it being inevitable is harmful because women develop damaged nipples and think they have to put up with it.

People who get pain are in a large minority. The Infant Feeding Survey which is the big UK study, held every 5 years, asks mothers about their problems with bf. The figure for 'breastfeeding uncomfortable or painful' is high - 18 per cent of breastfeeding women report this in the early days in the 2005 survey. But it's not the most common problem (that's baby wouldn't suck or latch or had poor attachment - 52 per cent. There is bound to be some overlap I think with these).

It is not unrealistic to expect no pain. 82 per cent of women don't experience enough of it to report it, anyway.

and i think expecting it all to be pain-free and easy is a common cause of people giving up breast feeding earlier than they would otherwise have wished to.

according to yon survey; 24% of mums who gave up in the first two weeks said it was because it was painful. that's 1 in 4 give a percent.

the relevant chapter of the infant feeding survey

I'm getting irritated now!

Nicknames, you are not even reading the stats properly. It's not 1 in 4 who experience sore nipples. It's one in four of those who stopped bf give this as a reason. The actual figures for those who experience soreness (of breasts and nipples) in the early days ('in hospital' acc. to the survey) is what I reported - 18 per cent.

I have never said people should expect bf to be pain-free and easy. I am a breastfeeding counsellor. I know problems are commonplace.

To clarify: I think women should have high expectations of bf. They should expect it to be rewarding and enjoyable - while understanding that it may not be, especially at first, because things can go wrong, mostly things that can be fixed.

Expecting it to be seriously painful is misleading them into ignoring conditions which could be helped.

tiktok you misunderstood my post re: stats. i was countering your stat, not correcting it. this to corroborate my previous statement.

Expecting it to always be pain free and easy is misleading them too.

I have not said they should expect it to be seriously painful, you seem to think i think it's always incredibly painful and a woman should just put up with that, which i emphatically do not - continued pain is bad and an indicator of something being wrong and absolutely can be helped. All I'm saying is that there is frequently some pain, frequently at the start, frequently during latch on, but hang in there and it gets better with time and practice. and, IMO, part of that is the physicality of your tits getting used to it.

To paraphrase your last reply, I bf'd DD for 18 mo and she's a barracuda. Latch on bloody hurt for the first few weeks but then it was rewarding and enjoyable. Luckily, I understood that it mightn't be at first, and things did go wrong, but they were fixed and then it was lovely.

Nicknames, why 'counter' the stat, though? My stat was correct....18 per cent of women report soreness and pain.

No, you are wrong to tell people 'hang in there and it gets better with time and practice' because your body acclimatises....I can't tell you how wrong this is, and how many tears and how much misery this very attitude causes.

Yes, this approach may well turn out to be ok for some - appears to have worked out well for you - but as a generality it is pernicious, it really is. It's meant to be encouraging and sympathetic. Some women will accept it for that. But others will be frustrated and justifiably annoyed, some will blame themselves for not getting used to it, despite 'time and practice, and will feel guilty for not being 'brave', or feel like a bad mother.

If someone is in pain, they need to get it fixed, asap. Sore nipples have a tendency to get worse and worse if they are left unfixed - and the assumption, which you would share with them, that 'time and practice' will resolve it after a matter of weeks is not helpful at all.

sorry, missed "I have never said people should expect bf to be pain-free and easy. I am a breastfeeding counsellor. I know problems are commonplace."

problem is, a lot of people do expect that. all media images of bf'ing are serene and quietly joyful. The message that "if it hurts you're doing it wrong" is so damn prevalent and off-putting. I know you dislike my analogies, and i know a breast is an organ, not muscle, but if you do a hundred push-ups having never done anything of the sort before, it's gonna hurt. doing new things properly takes time and practice.

I think we're saying a lot of the same things, it's just that I'm trying to emphasize the awkwardness of the initial period when mum and baby are getting used to bf'ing and you're emphasizing the lovely period after when things slot into place. The thread started off talking about the beginning period is all.

Tiktok, let's get the babies to read the articles you mentioned and our problems will be solved . Nipple soreness due to rawness (as opposed to pain, perhaps) is very common when bfing is getting started. Soreness can range from mild to excruciating depending on each woman's own sensory threshold and also on how the baby is doing at latching on, which is not always textbook technique at first. Agree friction and rubbing have no role in comfortable bfing, but bfing is new to everyone when mum and baby first meet, and it usually takes a bit of time for everyone to figure it out and get comfortable. That's the period where the soreness comes in. While getting used to it and trying to improve your technique, doing whatever you can to allow yourself to keep going as comfortably as possible (lansinoh, etc.) is surely permissible? After all, while the great experiment and all the adjustments are going on, baby needs to be fed around the clock. I agree that having mums think that pain and bfing necessarily go hand in hand is the wrong route too. Luckily there is much more help available to mums in this day and age than in former days (there's a sad thread about the older generation and the things they were told about bfing...)

Want to add that it is the beginning period where so many decide it's too much to deal with. Terms like 'not normal' or 'not the best way' to a new mum at a time when she is unsure of herself, accompanied by heightened emotionality, stress, and sleeplessness can translate as 'if it hurts then you're doing it wrong, and therefore you are a useless failure'. If nothing else, the first weeks of motherhood are a time of acute sensitivity to the comments of others. Surely it is best to accept that everyone's body can be different, everyone's skin is different, and women can feel a wide range of sensations when embarking on bfing. I have bfed 5 DCs myself, and experienced the soreness every time while the babies and I got started despite much support and advice re latching on; after the first, I had the experience to realise that 'this too shall pass' and I persisted, doing what I had been advised to do, and the helpful and practical advice helped.

mathanxiety - I am mystified. "While getting used to it and trying to improve your technique, doing whatever you can to allow yourself to keep going as comfortably as possible (lansinoh, etc.) is surely permissible?"

When have I ever suggested this is not permissable?

It's nicknames who's saying women should be told 'yes it hurts because your breasts are new to this and hang on in there because with time and patience it gets better'.

I know soreness is common. I know it can range from mild to excruciating - what sort of bfc do you think I am??

Nicknames, I am absolutely not saying the same as you. I know the initial experience of breastfeeding can feel awkward and takes some getting used to. I have never said 'if it hurts you're doing it wrong'...why would I say that, and increase the pressure and blame? I say 'if it hurts, you may need help to fix it to make it more comfortable'.

Not my fault people only see pictures of romantic, serene breastfeeding and expect the same to happen to them from day one.

Your message of 'time and patience will resolve pain after a period of weeks' goes nowhere to correct this picture, and I have already explained how unhelpful the message is.

Your analogies are unhelpful, too!! Time and practice to heal damaged nipples? Because press ups become easier after a while? No. It may have worked for you - it does work for some. But for others it is dangerous nonsense, I'm afraid

tiktok, i'm not going to change your mind and you're not going to change mine. we're cross-posting and going in circles and you're getting far too upset about it. I think what I might do is train to be a BF'ing counsellor myself and then go toe-to-toe with you again. I bet you're shuddering at the thought! I probs need some lessons in communication too so that my points (and analogies!) are clearer. C ya. Hope you can help LittleCheese.

OK, nicknames.

Ahem. I'm not upset, let alone 'far too upset'....FGS

You will learn a lot by becoming a breastfeeding counsellor, and you might well enjoy it.

Nicknames, sorry but arguing strongly for a certain point does not mean one is 'far too upset'. (I always get....well, far too upset myself when instead of arguing a point, someone says the other person is getting 'upset').

Anyway, I feel we all agree that a certain amount of nipple pain is normal but in many cases can be prevented. I myself really prefer to believe TikTok, and I hope she's right!

Thanks, Maria But no, we don't agree a 'certain amount of nipple pain is normal', we really don't!

It is common.

It doesn't always mean anything terrible or damaging.

But pain - not talking about little twinges but real pain - needs to be checked out, especially if it is getting worse over the first feeds.

Not even a certain amount of nipple pain? . I've heard it from so many women... as you say, it's so very common / usual to hear about it that common sense tells me it's normal. But maybe I'm completely wrong & it can be fixed, and even this pain at the very early stages can be worked on! It would be great if that's the case, as I said, I hope you're right & I believe you know what you're talking about. All the more for us all to insist for the need for more bf support... So sad to think that so many women have to live with intense nipple pain if the problem can be solved...

Tiktok, helping women who are experiencing soreness with advice on the soreness itself and how to cure it, instead of saying 'soreness is not normal', is what I'm getting at. The 'not normal' turn of phrase is not helpful and not necessary either to someone who is sore and just wants not to be sore, or to someone who feels stressed out and is worried about her performance. Focusing on the textbook ideal is as bad as the silly, fuzzy-edged pictures of perfect, serene mums and perfect, plump babies bfing, imo. The real experience of mums should be the starting point.

This is how it was for me. My nipple were cracked and bleeding for about a month, especially one which had a huge chunk out of it, always blood on the breast pad. A couple of times I managed to get a latch where it didn't hurt but most of the time I just braced myself for the pain, which lessened after the milk was flowing, about ten sucks. I saw zillions of feeding counsellors and the best tips that worked for me were:

• push baby forward from the shoulders, not the neck, put your hand behind their shoulders and push quickly forward once mouth is gaping

• get decent pillow to get them to right height, we got a proper orthopaedic V pillow which was much chunkier and firmer than breastfeeding ones and stayed in place. I think mybreastfriend are good too, as they strap on

• coat nipples lavishly with lanolin

• sleep without a bra, spend as much time topless as possible. I discovered this myself at 4-5 weeks and after 2 nights my nipples were healed, and from then on it was great. I only just stopped feeding DS and he is one year old next week. I remember crying at my DH and saying I would go on until the recommended weaning age and that was that.

Don't be shy to see as many people as possible about the feeding as one day someone will give you the tip that works.

Mathanxiety, yes, but if Tiktok believes- truly believes- that nipple pain is NOT inevitable & can be resolved with proper help, then surely she should say so, regardless of how common nipple pain is...

The added benefit of going topless as much as possible is that your neighbours will get to know you so much better. Please remember to close your blinds [sheepish ). But airing out the nipples really worked for me.

Nipple pain is very common. People's tolerance of it will vary. 18 per cent of women report it - there may well be more than this who experience it but have forgotten by the time they are asked, or who regard it as so trivial it's not worth ticking the box. Whatever...anyone who experiences pain needs support and the chance to have someone look at what's happening, and the chance to make it more comfortable.

In any case, that 18 per cent is based on the thousands and thousands of women in the UK Infant Feeding survey, and that's more than any of us have as friends! So I believe that 18 per cent as a basic figure, poss. an underestimate for the reasons I outline above but far from an inevitable part of bf.

math - I do help women experiencing soreness, FGS! All the flippin time. I don't sit there and say 'soreness is not normal' and do nothing about it. I may not even use the words 'not normal' at all with a woman asking me about soreness direct, because these are not very empathic or supportive words....I ask again, what sort of breastfeeding counsellor do you think I am? But on a discussion forum, it's perfectly ok to use this phrase, yes?

And I don't 'focus on the textbook ideal'. I focus on real women with real problems, and I certainly don't tell them that soreness is normal, and that time and patience will resolve it.

After I had my ds (EMCS) I was numb all the way up my torso (arms were unaffected).
My ds was thrust at my boob by a mw, I have no idea if he was on correctly or not. He was on there for over an hour, but I couldn't feel a thing, and was a bit spaced anyway.
As I started to get feeling back over the next 24 hours, I kept trying to bf, but I had never understood the expression 'toe-curling' pain until then.
I persevered, as I desperately wanted to bf. I had nipple shields, and cream, but my nipples were so cracked and sore. I sent dh to buy a breast pump, which I used in between feeds, but it was so incredibly painful. Every time I used it, the milk would turn pink due to the blood coming from my nipples.
Every time ds was due a feed I would tense up, in tears. I kept on with this for three weeks, as I really wanted him to have the best, but I had to give up for my sake, my dh's and my ds, as he was cranky all the time (picking up stressed mummy vibes!)
I gave him a bottle of formula, and he actually slept for a few hours.
Relieved, but very disappointed mummy.

twirlymum

Did anyone tell you 'carry on - it gets better'?

Did anyone say 'loads of women find it painful - you just have to persevere.'

Did they tell you, 'he looks as if he's latched on just fine'?

You needed far more help than you got. The toe-curling pain you experienced on day 2 should have been dealt with then and there - and the right sort of help could prob have done it.

I know tiktok, I feel that if maybe I hadn't been numb I would have felt pain that first day, and would have maybe realised there was a problem, but I think that's when the initial damage was done.
I had a bad infection in my cs scar too, so wasn't feeling great anyway.
One of the mw's who visited at home was visibly shocked at the state of my poor nips! She said she would have given up way before I did!
My ds is now a happy, healthy (and v cheeky) 2.6yr old. I'm just grateful for that, but I'll never have that experience of me serenely bf a baby (not planning any more!).

Hi good for your breastfeeding - try lansinoh for sore nipples - can keep it on during feeds and really helps. If you possibly can try not to bottle feed as could give baby worse latch for you - keep it up - I always had hell getting going but it;s great a few weeks in - good luck and congratulations on baby's arrival. Try contacting la leche people - theyre great and give advice on different holds (ie rugby which always really worked for me)- hold affects how baby latches and can help baby click on to correct method.. x

Tiktok, this is not strictly a discussion forum. The OP's thread is entitled "I Need Help (very long sorry)". People post looking for real help with real problems, and other people who are experiencing the same problems, but who do not post, look at the threads for tips too.