Commiserate with me please TWO Nurslings weaning at the same time.

[Verity79]

I'm 24 weeks pg with DD3 and I think my older DDs may well be weaning .

At bit of background:-

I had huge problems with PND and PND-OCD (still have them but as my youngest is 18 months I've 'graduated' to depression and OCD ) with regards to bfing. My 'friend' told me at 4 months if I didn't stop feeding DD1 by 6 months her immune system would never function as my antibodies would wipe out hers @@@@@ We argued and she started sending me irrelevant or completely erroneous stuff from PubMed to 'prove' her case. Cue spiral into PND-OCD that I'm still struggling to get out of 4 years later. Obviously other stuff contributed but this was the trigger that sent me off the deep end WRT breastfeeding.

DD1 has always been very attached to bfing once we weaned her off formula at 8 weeks (was on ffeds do to jaundice) and has always associated it with comfort due to her having severe reflux and nursing for hours to counteract the pain. She nursed through out DD2's pg even when there was NO milk between week 14 and week 26. I just gave additional cups of milk and yoghurt/cheese etc. Tandem nursed fine once DD2 was born. They used to hold hands whilst feeding .

Flash forward to now....DD1 doesn't know how to latch anymore and sucks like I'm a beaker but that's ok as she only 'feeds' for 10 seconds tops every few days. She even can go 10 days with out asking before being interested again.

DD2 will latch on for 10-15 seconds and suckle properly then slip off enough to bite hard. No amount of telling her not to bite will stop her neither will taking her off and putting on the floor. She is now down to doing that once or twice a day and will even go a day or two with out even mentioning 'Bah' (DD1's name for nursing that has stuck).

I have all my ducts plugged on both sides with white fat so even latching is painful let alone biting. I feel like crying most of the time about this as I suspected DD2 would wean before this pg was out but I didn't think DD1 would as well. I always hoped for self weaning for both of them but I'm not sure I'm coping with both doing it at the same time.

DD1 has bad asthma (but is now down to one med a day from 3!) and sore excema patches behind both knees plus on other parts of her body that come and go. DD2 has seem to escaped Asthma but her excema has flared up from nothing to sore patches on knees since she has stopped even asking for 'Bah'. I'm worried her excema will get to her sister's point where she has 2 creams, special shampoo and bathing cream just keep the worst at bay.

Sorry for the self indulgent thread. I know I should be pleased they have got to 40 months and 18 months and be especially pleased I haven't had to wean them myself but I just feel DD2 is weaning too early. Do I just keep offering and put up with the biting until my milk comes back (well colostrum really) and seeing if she will nurse better or just let her go?

here's kellymom on biting. the bit about doing it for attention is interesting. i'd say keep offering if you want to keep feeding - sorry that sounds a bit trite but you clearly want to carry on.

i know bog-all about tandem feeding, having only one child but have seen quite a few mentions of self-weaning when pg on the boards here.

Verity

Your older dd may well be weaning - her behaviour is typical of 3years + who are self-weaning. This is not, I suspect, a real issue with you.

Toddlers do sometimes start to behave differently at the breast during a pregnancy - could be that the flow is different, and with your older dd winding down her feeding maybe this adds to that. But it's worth hanging on in there and treating it like a strike rather than self-weaning. Prob better not to insist or pressurise - I think you've worked that one out, though.

I don't understand about the white fat and blocked ducts, sorry.

The mental health stuff makes me think you would benefit from the chance to have some counselling or psychotherapy from someone skilled in this particular area - not breastfeeding counselling, though. Maybe you are already having some form of listening/talking treatment?

Not self-indulgent at all. It's really hard to stop bfing, and if they stop and you don't want to, then that's even harder.

Are you on AD's for the PND/OCD? FWIW, I would still say I have PND, and DS2 is nearing 3. It only started when they were born, so that is what caused it. I'm sure once they're not such hard work, and I get a reliable 8 hours of sleep a night, it will all get easier, but that's a long way off for you by the sounds of things.

Could DD2 be cutting more teeth? Have forgotten the ages all that happens.

Congrats on the pg, you'll be feeding again before you know it whatever happens.

Tiktok - the openings on the nipple where the milk would actually come out are all blocked by white fat deposits. If I squeeze part of the nipple with my nails(in much the same way as you would a spot ) a small ribbon of white fat comes out of each opening. It's not liquid at all and maintains the same shape as it did in the duct. I've tried pumping but it hurts too much and all it does is bring the fat closer to the surface rather than all the way out.

I have no milk at all and haven't since about week 14 (now 24). Last pg I got colostrum back at 26 weeks but then only 4/5 openings were blocked on each nipple and DD1 was nursing around 6-8 times a day at around 10-15 minutes a time - now it's about 20 on the left side and 12 on the left (my low yield side normally) and no one is nursing for longer than 10 secs 2 times a day.

So I'm not sure if no one is nursing properly and all the openings are blocked if the colostrum will even be able to come out. Should I just suck it up (ha-ha) and keep pumping? I have a manual medela.

FourArms - I've been on meds for PND-OCD since Dec 06 - 100mg Sertraline and my anti-epileptics are also used as a mood stabiliser in patients with bipolar/mania/etc. I'm now doing an OCD Group (CBT type treatment) to try and rectify my issues before my DDs pick up on my 'things'. I'm hoping to finish this course before DD3 is born.

Hello, Verity,

I am in a similar situation to you in that I am 23 weeks pregnant and tandem-feeding DD,3.5 and DS,20 months. A few weeks back - sorry can't be more specific - my son was behaving much as you describe your DD2 - not latching on properly, just biting constantly. It was incredibly distressing for me and him. Like yourself, I wanted my children to wean when the time was right for them, not 'forced' on them due to my pregnancy. I am delighted to say he is now back to normal - in fact seems to be making up for the time he lost! I have often thought - and cannot begin to imagine - how I will feel once my children stop breastfeeding. I totally sympathise with your fears that your DD's are weaning at the same time, but hopefully your DD2, at least, might be going through a funny stage (with hindsight I think my DS may have been teething). I have noticed, literally in the last few days, that my DD isn't latching on like she always has - feels rather 'pathetic' somehow and ineffective. I am thinking that she could be weaning too.

I would normally try to be totally objective and leave anyone to make their own decisions about what to do in any situation, but, my experience at least says that for you have got to the stage with b/f-ing that you are now - persevering with DD1, nursing through one pregnancy and over half way through another with two toddlers - you're obviously a tough, determined bird so persevere despite the discomfort (ooooh, recall excrutiating nipples at certain stages of pregnancy!!)

Best of luck and please tell us how you're getting on.

Mrs Gamp,

Breasteeding whilst pg can be excruciating at times and other times you feel like your heart will burst with love for the baby in your womb and the one at your breast .

On the suck, suck, bite front DD2 is cutting all 4 of her eye teeth at the same time so I guess that might have something to do with it!

DD1 sees her sister bite me so she promises to be gentle so doesn't really latch to avoid making me cry! She's so sweet.

Good luck with your pg and (is it?) Triandem nursing once baby is born!

Aha....'white spot', Verity....should be wellknown to any experienced bfc if you can speak to one. I am dashing out now but will check in tomorrow with what I know about this.

hi verity,
can't help much but can give you some sympathy. as you know ds2 weaned when i was pg with ds3 and i was gutted, so i know how you feel.

but also just wanted to say that I had that white stuff in ducts too, and it didn't seem to be the cause of any of the problems (in my case it startred about a month or so after he weaned) and ds3 hasn't had any trouble getting milk out despite it! so, it could jut be one of those things, and unrelated to them both weaning iyswim?

there's an LLL meeting in washington on the 1st July btw

Verity - you have a lot on your plate at the minute, stop worrying about what you can't change.

Kids grow up, DD is self weaning - don't think DS ever will but I understand how hard it can be. You have another little one coming and it's incredibly hard work making a baby as you well know and yes the milk situation will go back and forth during pregnancy - DD decided it was the best thing ever during my pregnancy . It all sorts itself out in the end.

You are doing great!

I went to my OCD group today. They seem to think that it's mainly my OCD making me u pset about the weaning. I keep thinking DD2 will have an asthma attack soon (am at the same stage of pg I was when DD1 had her 1st attack and DD2 is wearing the shoes DD1 had on when she had it) got to love OCD

I am also really freaked out by the fact that she is only 18 months so I haven't even done the minimum as per WHO/AAP/NHS etc.

I got the usual clap trap about that being for other people in the rest of the world, not needing to worry about it here in Britain as all the food etc etc. Argh!!!! People living in mud huts or mansions are still biologically human so their bodies still expect the same things regardless of hot/cold running water and SKY+ Why should I do less by my child because of where we live?

On the other hand I have got to 18 months with her so I have got most of the way to 2 years.

I'm going to go to the LLL meeting next week and I'm also seeing my CPN (but she sees full term nursing as mainly for comfort not of nutritional benefit).

Oh I am so self indulgent today. I spent most of my group session crying can I blame it on the pg hormones?

Verity

I am going to stick my neck out and say that I think the huge importance of getting to 2 years with bf may be to do with OCD - are you a perfectionist with high standards in other parts of your life who becomes anxious when those standards are not met?

The 2 year min. thing is physiologically and nutritionally appropriate for all children - that is true. But it is not, and no one, not even me , would ever claim it to be, a factor in significant health differences between 18 mths and 2 years. I actually agree with your CPN - full term nursing is more to do with relationships than nutrition - and that is a good thing. Comfort is a wonderful thing, and it is essential that children can get comfort from the important people in their lives. Comfort is part of a relationship between a mother and child, but this relationship can be expressed in many ways...it doesn't have to be through breastfeeding.

Breastfeeding for 2 years-plus is a lovely thing and worth doing for many reasons, but it is not an 'ideal' or a 'standard' to reach, when not reaching it means something 'bad' or that you have 'failed' in some way.

It's the 'freaking out' at not bf to 2 years plus that makes me think this is something that has an overriding focus in your life - when the love and care for your dds is really the main thing, as I am sure you know.

If bf does stop, you will miss it. You are not being 'self-indulgent' in believing it to be important. But you will not stop loving and caring and feeding your dds well if and when bf stops

I'm actally not a perfectionist (you should see the state of my house!) but I do know the freak outs re bfing stems from being told it would actually harm my DDs (see op for 1st instance). I was starting to get over that when my DD2 was born. When she was 8 weeks old I saw the senior psychiatrist for the trust who was horrified I was bfing on Sertraline (as per T. Hale the safest of all the SSRI ADs) and when he found out I was also nursing my 22 month old he was disgusted and implied I was nursing for my own ends (by that I don't mean my OCD was encouraging me to nurse but that I was a sexual devant ).

I really want to be happy (and in a way I am) that they have both nursed to their own time scales, as to me that means they have moved past the biological need to nurse with out any forcing/coercion on my part. I have fulfilled my OCD about this in that sense as I/OCD feels to force a child to nurse past when they want to is damaging to them.

However it's really hard that both of them are doing it together. I still give lots of cuddles/kisses/read stories/sing songs/do all the things other mums do to be close to their DCs but have the occasional freak out over the loss of the bfing (as in today ).

On the blocked ducts/whatever they are now starting to crack and scab over so would be OUCH if anyone wanted to nurse. That's me looking on the sunny side of weaning .

OMG holding hands! That is adorable

You're getting great advice from tiktok I can't come close to, and you're far more experienced at breastfeeding than I.

You already know to ignore people who say ridiculous things about your own "ends", but I can imagine it must have been very upsetting to hear that from a psychiatrist.

I'm going to do a little dance! DD2 was on a nursing strike not weaning. She nursed Friday night but refused on Saturday when offered, nursed Sunday night and this morning actually asked for Bah!

When she was nursing DD1 asked if she could have some too but DD2 said 'My Bah sister' and wouldn't let her! She kept resting her head on my chest and shaking her head if DD1 asked if she could have some. She eventually got bored and climbed off, DD1 got on my lap to nurse and noticed that DD2 was standing 'nursing' her doll (a toddler not baby doll)!

Even my DDs practice full term nursing .

Still got my blocked what evers but the pain isn't so bad now.

Thank you to everyone who gave advice/support I really appreciate it.

hooray, well done for persevering. hope all unblocks very soon.

Lovely