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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Original poster

Am I stealing DD's BM for later feeds

29 replies

splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 13:37

I am really confused. Have 6week DD who feeds all daytime. She started sleeping 9.30pm-3/4 am about 1 week ago. was so pleased about this happening i decided to try and reinforce that behaviour by trying to supplement with EBM at 9.30 and 3/4am feeds. Trouble is DD feeds all day leaving v little time for expressing, so am expressing whilst she feeds on other side or whilst she has a little kip - 20/30mins long generally. Now ive started this supplementation, I dont want to stop because i'll feel like shes getting less. But would she be getting less? By expressing am i just taking the milk she would be having during the day and 'saving it for later'? what im not clear about is how long it takes for milk to be made. If she falls asleep and i pump for 10mins and she wakes up when ive finished and wants a feed have i just nicked it??????

OP posts:
Lulumama · 16/05/2009 13:40

not sure why you are expressing rather than putting her to the breast? with the best will in the world you cannot 'reinforce the behavoiur' of a 6 week old

best way for your supply to meet her demands is for her to go to the breast as frequently s she wants to

ruddynorah · 16/05/2009 13:42

why would you supplement with ebm rather than just breastfeed? i don't get it. seems like a hassle.

SoupDragon · 16/05/2009 13:44

sounds like an awful lot of hassle to me.

No, you're not stealing it, your breasts will up their production to take into account the amount you are expressing.

Original poster
splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 13:45

Oh i forgot to mention - she is feeding from me too at 9.30pm and 3/4am feeds - both sides!! so now shes having 4oz EBM on top of that and looking round for more after i dont want to stop.

OP posts:
Original poster
splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 13:47

sorry confused bit at end of last post.

...looking round for more after so i dont want to stop coz i feel she'll still be hungry.

OP posts:
SoupDragon · 16/05/2009 13:47

When she's been on the second side, put her back on the first. I'm fairly sure that 6 weeks is a traditional growth spurt so you need her to feed form you as much as possible to stimulate your supply so it will increase to meet her demands. Expressing is not as efficient as doing this.

pooka · 16/05/2009 13:50

I think the problem with this is that you are perhaps giving more milk at night than she would ordinarily take (breasts and then bottle) - aren't you instead reinforcing the night feeds?

Though I know nothing - it just seems illogical to me.

Also agree with lulu re: reinforcing behavior in a 6 week old baby.

pooka · 16/05/2009 13:52

Agree with soupdragon. Best way to boost your supply is to feed and feed and feed. That way, your dd will stimulate supply to ensure that you produce abundant milk for her needs, whereas if you top up at night with the previously expressed bottle, your dd is not, while she is having the bottling, stimulating your breasts to produce more milk. IYSWIM.

ruddynorah · 16/05/2009 13:54

if she wants more you just need to put her back on. keep swapping sides. so like, one side...she finshes and unlatches and you burp her..offer next side. if still rooting, offer the first side again, and so on. no hard and fast rules. she keeps taking milk, you keep making milk...and so on.

Original poster
splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 14:03

was doing swapping sides business but was having to do 3 rounds - ie 6 breasts - was taking 2 hrs - and not getting any sleep, in case youre wondering i wasnt limiting the time on each breast.

if shes just emptied a side how can there be any more milk a few mins later? I can see point about reinforcing night feeds but just dont want to go back to 6-8 sides.

OP posts:
Lulumama · 16/05/2009 14:10

wondering if breast compression would be helpful here?

sounds like you need a bit of support, to assure you that you are doing fine!

new babies feed more than you can ever, ever anticipate. if she is thriving, growing, weeing and pooing and growing then she is doing well on your milk. expressing sounds like a lot of extra faff. some of hte sucking she will be doing is also for comfrot and to be near you.

cluster feedings in the evening is totally normal and babies do have frequent, mammoth grwoth spurts.

Original poster
splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 14:12

Also - this isnt 6week spurt behaviour. shes been a very frequent feeder since birth, barely leaving me with 5 mins between feedings during day- have therfore been trying to boost supply in order to help space feeds out. during a six hr stretch 11am-5pm she feeds around 12-15 times.This makes me paranoid about supply. I just want to make sure that the milk im pumping isnt depriving her next feed even if its only 10 mins away. Is it possible to pump 80mls then have plenty for a feed in a few mins?

OP posts:
SamJamsmum · 16/05/2009 14:13

Even the absolute fullest feed never completely empties a breast (takes around 75% of available milk). Milk is made continuously. Switching sides more than once - referred to a switch nursing - is a standard way to increase milk supply. I would try at least a couple of days of this and see where you are.

Are you feeling good about the latch?

Lulumama · 16/05/2009 14:17

as samjamsays, the breast is never empty really

babies do feed frequently , that is normal baby behaviour.

perhaps you could get in touch with someone from teh NCT or LLL to give you some real life support.

Original poster
splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 14:19

latch pinches - samjamsmum - had an LC, couldnt help, nipples come out lipstick shaped - she had op for tongue tie 2 wks ago - didnt help with nipples.

because feeding got off to bad start and no one seems to have had a baby that does what mine does - people are astounded when they come over and see me literally feeding all day without being able to get off my chair - i am a little bit anxious.

feel like im playing catch up.

OP posts:
Original poster
splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 14:23

am intrigued by compression lulumama but i dont get it. when i try squeezing she just stops sucking. i guess you can all tell im finding things a little tricky!

OP posts:
Lulumama · 16/05/2009 14:25

try some different help

try a breastfeeding cafe or peer supporter.

worth another try with someone else

tiktok · 16/05/2009 15:17

Breast compression pointless in this situation - breast compression is a therapeutic tool for babies who fall asleep/lose interest because they don't have the energy to meet their own sucking/feeding needs...it helps boost the supply and the baby's intake. It's not intended for perfectly healthy, well-fed babies who will probably be confused and maybe a little irritated at not being 'allowed' to decide for themselves when to slow down sucking

Honestly, reinforcing the behaviour of a baby as little as this is a pipe dream! Expressing and storing and then bringing out a bottle at 3 am in the morning....well, what a hassle Much easier just to go with the flow. If you reinforce anything , you'd be reinforcing the need for masses amount of milk in the middle of the night, which is, I'd guess, not what you want to do

Caz10 · 16/05/2009 15:29

I would second what lulumama said - get some different help! I went through the MVs at the hospital, the HVs at home, the LL helpline, the NCT helpline before finally getting through to someone wonderful at the BfN (it totally depends who volunteers in your area, the BfN just has a stronger presence up here than the other 2).

They guided me through the first tricky weeks - well ok I admit I was still seeing them weekly at about 6mths! .

My dd was a very frequent feeder too, they helped me fix my latch when no-one else had managed (took a few weeks) and helped me to relax re the almost constant feeding - it doesn't last honestly. I had the lipstick nipples too, but again they helped me sort out latch. I'm sure that helped the efficiency of her feeds too, plus as time went by she got bigger and stronger.

You'll be fine, but RL help makes ALL the difference.

Original poster
splodge2001 · 16/05/2009 15:38

thanks caz1o . i think solving the riddle of the lipschtick nipple is key. what did they tell you and who are the BfN? breastfeeding network?

everyone so far has shrugged their shoulders

OP posts:
tiktok · 16/05/2009 15:45

Sorry, missed the stuff about lipstick nipple. This normally means the nipple is compressed between tongue and hard palate, which can be painful and even damaging. Something is preventing the baby drawing the nipple right into the back of the mouth - needs RL observation to sort out, I agree.

Caz10 · 16/05/2009 15:46

Yes Breastfeeding Network - there is a very active weekly support group near to me thankfully - saved my breastfeeding career and we're still going strong at 18mths even though I've been back at work for 9mths FT!

Link here There has been some merger since I used the number regularly, between the BfN and I can't remember who, but basically the number will route you to the closest volunteer to you geographically. The lady I spoke with then gave me details of their weekly meeting. We don't have a local NCT or breastfeeding cafe here (wilds of Scotland ) so they were a massive help.

Honestly I can't remember the ins and outs, I was so sleep deprived and emotional at the ttime! But they just worked very patiently with dd and I, observed many, many feeds and gave me lots of little different pointers about how to hold her, when to bring her to the breast etc. She had suspected tongue tie but wasn't considered bad enough to get a snip done. It wasn't sorted in one session with them, but was an on-going process that needed looking at again every time dd grew a bit etc. But by that point I wwas also enjoying the social side of the group.

I feel for you re the shoulder shrugging - my HV came in one day while I was feeding DD, looked at me feeding as she walked past and said "oh well that's going swimmingly then" and ticked a box on her paperwork, despite me being in pain, dd having weight gain issues (they eventually pushed like crazy to get her onto formula) etc etc. Grrr

Caz10 · 16/05/2009 15:48

Oh and I can confirm what tiktok says re pain and damage - get someone to help you asap as it got REALLY sore!!

SamJamsmum · 16/05/2009 17:55

As already said that lipstick nipple is the key piece of the puzzle. Something is happening with latch which is causing discomfort and feeds to be more inefficient -hence why feeds are taking so long. It's like drinking through a squashed straw. And your supply is always playing catch-up.
Could still be connected to tongue tie. Could be lower jaw needs to be further away from nipple.
Could be related to positioning e.g. chin not tucked close enough to breast, baby's arm inbetween you preventing baby tucking in close.

At what point did you see the LC? I think it's worth finding someone else who can observe a feed. BfN breastfeeding cafes, local PCT drop-ins that aren't always well advertised. Phone the ABM and NCT helplines and ask if any local counsellors do home visits. Are you comfortable saying whereabouts you are and we can try and find you someone?

mawbroon · 16/05/2009 17:56

splodge2001 - this all sounds very like my ds. For the first 9 weeks or so, he was crying if he wasn't constantly attached.

Everything seemed to be fine at the time, his weight gain was ok, but not huge and he had plenty wet/dirty nappies.

But now that I have learned so much more about breastfeeding, I am sure that there was something wrong. I too had the lipstick shaped nipples (not sure how early on because I hadn't known to look for them) and am wondering if ds had a slight tongue tie as well.

I did the whole pumping thing and tbh I think all it did was exhaust me even more. It just made no sense at all for me to be feeding him expressed milk instead of directly from source, but I say that with the benefit of hindsight!

I would echo what everyone says about getting RL help, and hopefully it will get better for you soon.

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