Seems to all be going wrong - very lost as to why/what I should do...

[ouchthishurts]

Not sure whether to post this, so will post in Breast and Bottle Feeding and Weaning. Bit of a mammoth post, but really really appreciate any advice from anyone who can be bothered to get through it!

DS is 23.5 weeks and exclusively bf, and from about 13 weeks has been sleeping through the night, after a dreamfeed as a bottle of EBM at about 10.30pm. In the first couple of weeks he would sleep through until 8am ish (wow), and then through to around 6.30, when he would wake for a feed and then go back to sleep for a couple of hours. have been feeding on demand during the day, and dont really have a daytime routine as such for him - he just fits in around whatever DD (aged 22 months) is up to. that said, he has always (from about 3 weeks) settled to sleep around 7pm and has always had to be woken for a dreamfeed.

That is, until the last week. about 10 days ago, he started waking about 5am, and then over the next few days that gradually slipped earlier and earlier, until the last couple of nights, when he has woken at 1.30/2 for a feed, at 4/4.30 and then slept until 7.30. So suddenly he has gone from not waking between 11am and 6.30am to waking twice. And as well as that, he has been waking before his dreamfeed - this evening it was at 9.20, so about 2.5hours after he last fed he was awake.

I am beginning to feel a bit desperate, partly because I just dont know why and therefore what to do, and partly because I am getting increaingly exhausted (with a wakeful toddler as well) and feel like I am back to newborn stage with an unpredicatable baby feeding every couple of hours.

Can anyone offer any advice? Is my milk not satisfying him anymore? Should I start to wean him? or should I just top up with formula and wait another couple of weeks to wean him?
Could it be a growth spurt that lasts this long and I should just put up with it? I just feel a bit lost with it all, and dont know why it suddnely feels we are going so far backwards and that bf-ing isnt working anymore - but maybe he has ust reached an age/weight where he is reading for weaning (he was born on 50th percentile and has basically stayed there).

Thanks for any advice...sorry for mammoth post.

This sounds really hard for you.

Is it possible he's taking more interest in the world around him now, so is feeding less in the day (too much to see!) and more at night? Can you try feeding him somewhere boring during the day?

23.5 weeks is a bit early for weaning, and weaning often makes no difference for sleep. Unfortunately.

Hello,

I just got a booklet about this from NHS scotland.

see this section www.healthscotland.com/documents/browse/303/1476.aspx

I think it might be time to wean. As long as he is past 17wks you can start if formula isn't enough.

Thanks NQC.

He does get quite easily distracted during the daytime feeds - but hard to avoid that as have 22 month old DD with me all the time making noises and asking for cuddles! the one thing I hae been trying to do over the last couple of days was get him to space out feeds a bit more - felt he was snacking rather a lot rather than getting decent long feeds. Which i felt was sort of my fault as was offering him breast when in fact he was tired but couldnt get him to sleep any other way - eg like take him out in pram because couldnt leave the house as DD napping, or during playgroup with DD, offer him breast when I knew he was tired but couldnt offer him another way to get to sleep. So have been worrying this was resulting in him only ever snakcing during the day. So this weekend, with DH around, it has been easier to space out feeds more, and be able to spend more time responding to his needs and let DH look after DD. but if anything it seems to have made things worse! (more waffle, I just feel a bit confused/down about it - with DD she just made constant progression, ie when she hit a milestone like sleeping through or something she didnt look back, and feel lost when I thought we had it cracked with DS and know it feels like it isnt working for him - and me)

It could be lots of things - he may be ready for a bit more in his diet so you could try introducing solids if you want to (though this might also interrupt a sleeping pattern as his body gets used to new food which is what happened with my DS). I held off until 26 weeks, not that it made any difference to his sleeping though!
It could also be a growth spurt which happens at this age. And as Notquitecockney says he could well be taking more of an interest in everything and not want to waste time sleeping!
Has he cut any teeth yet? Both of mine slept worse in the days before a tooth came through.

I really sympathise and hope things get better for you soon.

Don't really have any advice for you but just to say my DS is about the same age and is doing a similar sort of thing. He used to wake once in the night, for the past couple of weeks it has been twice and last night it was three times

I am sure that it is a developmental thing, as NotQuiteCockney said they are more interested in the world around them during the day and concentrate less on feeding. I am sure that your milk is fine.

I think it is just a phase but must be so hard when you have an active toddler too. I know I am tired out and I only have one!

Thank you for that Rsmum

yes, see jetgirl, that is my other thing - I think well actually maybe it is something else like teeth. He isnt showing classic signs of teething really - well, lots and lots of drool actually, but no red cheeks and doesnt appear to be in pain. but I do think, well, maybe its not hunger, maybe it is something else that means he just cant resettle at night anymore? He started sleeping through at 13 weeks when he discovered thumb sucking, and the first few days I would hear him furiously sucking about 4am, when he had obviosuly woken but had learnt how to self-settle. So maybe it is just that he has for some reason lost the ability to do this rather than hunger? Which indicates I should just stick with it and wean as planned at 26 weeks, and stick to exclusive bf until then (which I did with DD, and it has been so - stupidly - important to do the same with him).

Ugh, so many questions, and I know you dont know the answers! I thought second time round I would know what I was doing, but I dont!! But your thoughts and sympathies are really appreciated.

thank you helms.

I hae just googled 'growth spurts' and confusingly the bullet points to how to identify a growth spurt are basically the same as how to identify whether your baby is ready for weaning - ie no longer sleeping through the night, reducing times between feeds, napping for shorter periods during the day.

I sway madly between thinking I should just stick with it, that it will end, and I will be so pleased i got to 6 months excl bf (WHY is it quite so important to me i dont know!) - to thinking give the poor boy some food its obvious hes hungry!

ouch I could have written your post myself. I have a dd who just turned 3 and a dd who will be 26 weeks this week. I am also breastfeeding. Until recently dd2 was having a dreamfeed around 11 and then sleeping til around 5 and then going on til 9. In the last few weeks though she is having the dreamfeed then waking at 2.30 and again around 5.30. She is drinking loads in these feeds so is definitely hungry. Her problem does seem to be that she can't settle for proper feeds during the day anymore. Taking her somewhere quiet is not an option as I can't leave dd1 unsupervised. I'm not sure weaning will help you though as I started dd on solids a recently and although she is loving her food it is making no difference to the night waking. I am seriously thinking of giving her a bottle during the day as she seems to prefer having a feed while being more upright and able to look around. Can't decide whether to express or give formula though.
My dd1 is a terrible sleeper too and is often awake in the night. I am exhausted from lack of sleep.

The problem is. You wont know whether he needs weaning or not until you have done it and seen whether he sleeps any better.

My ds did all this and I held out till nearly 26wks and weaned then. and he started sleeping LOADS better!! but not all babies do this.

so you have to imagine:

if you wean early and it makes no diff to his sleep how annoyed will you be that you weaned early?

if you leave it till 26wks and weaning does help his sleep, how annoyed will you be that you missed out on a few weeks of better sleep?

Personally, despite my experience, I am happy with my 26wks decision - it was only a couple more weeks of bad sleeping and I can look back and say I weaned him at the right time for allergies etc to be minimised....

Ouch, agree that it is confusing. After reading those bullet points have just realised my DS is napping for shorter periods during the day too. It is no wonder we are all worn out!

I think if 6 months excl bf is so important to you, I would try to get through the next few weeks. I am going to wean at close to 26 weeks so if you decide to do that too I will be with you in spirit (as well as sleeplessness!).

suiledonn anyone who has other dcs and is going through this sleeplessness has my sympathy. Must be exhausting!

I would head for the 4-5 month old sleep thread in the sleep forum ... Probably won't give you any magic answers but at least you won't be alone!

DD was a hellish sleeper around that stage but seems to have settled down since then (7 and a bit months now).

Imo it's more likely to be developmental than mean that you need to start on solids.

I would ride it out. Your DS is hungry and he is boosting your milk supply by feeding more at night. It will settle back down again. I definitely would not give formula at this stage.With my fourth baby I was determined to get to 26 weeks exclusive breastfeeding. I started weaning her brothers when they woke more frequently during the night between 20 and 24 weeks. I never did the dream feed thing as I found that it made no difference to DS1's sleeping pattern. When she started doing the same I just accepted it and did it. She was back to sleeping all night again before she started weaning at 26 weeks. I always fed her lying down so that I could snooze at the same time. I was just so proud of myself and it proved a point to me that night waking does not automatically mean solids - it means more milk.

thank you everyone. I think I am ery much leaning towards riding it out now. Last night he only woke once - at about 4am, so went quite happily for about 5hr ish from 11 to 4 so I feel slightly less desperate this morning! I'll at least get to this weekend and rethink things - I think maybe if i take it a week at a time I will be at 26 weeks before I know it!

Thanks again for your sympathy - it is really compounded by having DD - awake at 7.30 every morning full of beans and ready for the day. (She is only 22 months, but seems really to be resisting her nap some days - others going down for 3 hours, so that is all a bit of an unpredictable struggle too - but another thread for another day!)

Just a thought but each of mine started waking in the night and I found if I woke them, instead of dreamfeeding them, at 10.30pm and kept them awake for a bit (but obviously not too much or too stimulated), this helped them sleep through again. You don't mention his napping but I found that feeding and napping were definitely interwtined and if I kept an eye on daytime naps there was usually something that needed to change there too (eg waking them a bit earlier from a long daytime nap to stimulate them more during the daytime) which had a knock-on effect on night time sleeping. Hope it improves. Sleep deprivation is a killer - it is one thing with a newborn where you are resigned to it but something altogether different when you have got used to sleeping for long slugs only to be awakened once more!

What would happen if you left out the dream feed altogether? He might sleep longer if not disturbed at all?

Exactly Moshi - nothing quite so disheartening as going backwards!

Mears - thats a good question and I suppose is an option. Except last night he woke at 9.20 and the night before at 10pm. Tbh though I dont think he was hungry at 9.20pm, but was disturbed and couldnt resettle - I am loathe to leave him to cry and try to resettle, not least because it wakes DD, so tend to just latch him on quite quickly.

I suppose I feel the dream feed has always worked - and it did get him sleeping from 10.45 for 8/9 hours for a good 9 or 10 weeks. Also, I always express for it (the night before) and DH gives it so it has always felt that it is sort of my time off (ie when I put DS down at 7pm I am off duty, the only thing I have to do is express but can do so in front of TV, while mn-ing etc!). But perhaps i will indeed think of that if he gets back to a point of not waking between 7 and 10.30 and then seeing what happens.

got to 8.20 now and so far so good!!

I would always offer a feed too if he woke - I don't believe in letting little ones cry themselves to sleep without a feed. I just meant a dream feed that you gave whether awake or not. Keep us updated with his progress.

Thanks mears. Last night was the worst by far and he seemed to wake every 2 hours! I took him to the baby clinic this morning and had him weighed - he is 17lbs something - still bang on the percentile (50th) that he has been tracking all along - so no signs there that he has been really hungry. The health visitor suggested I try and settle him during the night in other ways - and not with the breast. So maybe I will try that. but it is so hard jigging and shushing and patting for an hour in the middle of the night, fearful of waking DD when you know it could all have been over and done with quietly and happily with ten mins on the breast! But perhaps I am just setting myself up for constant night wakings otherwise. Hmmm......!

Personally with other children I would breastfeed him at this age. He isn't quite 10 months. You really don't have long to go till 26 weeks - it is so worth it IMO for the personal satisfaction. It isn't long to go and he will not remain 2 hourly. The weighing is not an indicator of whether he is hungry or not either. He could be using up the calories being more active.
Stick in, I did it and so can you

you're not alone!

Back to the teething thing - my DD didn't have red cheeks, nappy rash or any of those other classic signs, just the rubbishy sleep beforehand.
I totally sympathise with your feelings about spending ages trying to settle him in the night without waking your toddler (I think this is why at 18 months DS still relies on a bit of boob to get back to sleep as I just don't want DD woken up) I do wish I had persevered with the walking and patting though as I might be sleeping better now!

ouchthishurts, respnding to a baby's needs for comfort at night really doesn't set up 'bad habits' and an hour of patting and shushing is far more exhausting than just giving him what he is asking for What he's asking for is normal and age appropriate - it is normal for babies of this age to wake and ask for the comfort of a breastfeed. Responding to this sets the scene for good emotional and mental health, and trust in the world and you - that's a great lesson to learn!

Wow - I really am not alone!!! Thank you everyone, really appreciate it. I think that is exactly what i need - to be reminded that it is fine and normal and OK to repsond to his needs in that way. He is so content when i feed him, and drifts back off to sleep after 10 minutes, it would feel unnatural to do anything else. that said, things seem to be on the up! after being up every couple of hours on monday night - on tuesday night he slept straight through from 10.45 until 8 am!!!! I however was up from 5am worrying that he was OK! My breasts also havent been so full and hard and painful since he was about 4 weeks old! Last night he woke only once at 4am, fed for 10 mins then back to sleep. So I am feeling far better about it all. I dont mind night wakings, as long as it doesnt feel like it going to go on forever, and a couple of good nights interspersed with bad makes the whole thing much more manageable! I feel much happier and more secure about feeding during night wakings and not worrying about it. and I am going to hold off on weaning until the weekend after this one when he will be 25 weeks and 3 days.

Thanks very very much for all your help and support.

Glad it all helped!

Would be good if you could share your feelings and insight with your HV....

Go on, leave it for another 4 days and he will be 26 weeks