FF guilt.... plus how much BM actually makes a difference?

[firstontheway]

History so far...
By 6 days my DD had lost 21% BW so we were re-admitted and started formula feeding. I always put her to the breast before offering a bottle, sometimes for up to an hour. Plus in between feeds whenever she would take it. Her latch is great, I've been pumping (hospital grade pump), hand expressing, using fenugreek and domperidone, seen a BF counsellor, doing breast compression during feeding etc etc

I'm still getting an extremly poor amount, I would guess about 50-60ml per day absolute max. The rest is formula, and after not regaining her BW till week 4, she's now doing wonderfully and on the 9th centile after dropping almost right off the charts, (3.8kg at 6 weeks) and taking 4oz bottles about 5/6 times per day.

I'm VERY glad she's doing well on the formula, but I can't shake off this guilt. It's so consuming and I find myself thinking about it and crying about it constantly. In every other way we're doing really well, I've bonded with her and love her to bits, but hate I can't give her this one natural thing I should be capable of giving.

If she's only getting about 50mls milk per day, how much good is that likely to do her? Will it give her any kind of immunity or health benefits whatsoever? If so, I'll carry on without any hesitation, but I don't want to have this doubt hanging constantly over my head. If I knew it was making a difference I'd be able to continue and feel proud that at least she was getting that benefit, but if those benefits are non-existant or negotiable I'm going to drive myself insane.

Finally, my HV mentioned that if a woman makes only a small amount of milk, the antibodies are more concentrated in that milk so she would be getting the same in those 2oz than she would be in say 4oz or 6oz. I'd love to believe that was true but have never heard of it before and unfortunately my HV has talked a lot of crap previously! Has anyone else heard of this?

Thanks for reading

Any amount of BM is beneficial, I think she's a very lucky girl to have a mum who sticks at pumping for 6 weeks.

Have you phoned any of the helplines or gone to a LLL meeting near you. They could hep possibly with increasing theamount of milk you produce.
Hopefully an expert will be along soon.
Keep up the goodd work.
Also don't feel guilty - you are doing your absolute best and exBf doesn't automatically make you a good mum just like ff doesn't make you a bad one. YOu sound great.

sorry but bad grammar/spelig bttrit stop dss from killing dd. Didn't wantthis t go unanswered.

ahhh well done you, dont feel guiltyxxx you have done so well with all your pumping and expressing and being tired!xx you gave your baby the most important part of the breast milk and that was the colostum...liquid gold!!! that only comes out in tiny little amounts which is why its sooo fustrating to express!!

i could give you the details but would probably bore you to death(sorry im a BFC student very enfusiastic!!!)

any amount of breast milk will benefit your baby, but if its going to drive you insane then pos not benefit you!!!!xxx remeber if your happy and calm, baby be happy to!xx

try not to feel guilty though you have done a fantastic job!xxxx

firstontheway - i am not qualified in any way, so cannot answer your question, but i am so impressed by your commitment and perseverance i wanted to post. wow. you have had an incredibly tough start with your lo. but she is on the mend and you have done everything you can physically do at every stage along the way. please try not to feel guilty, you have done amazingly and thinking objectively, could not have done any more could you. i know saying 'please don't feel guilty' is easy to write, hard to do, but from an outsiders point of view, you've done absolutely everything you could have done. you've responded proactively at every stage.
pls try to not beat yourself up. newborns are so little for such a short amount of time, pls try to focus on enjoying your thriving baby now.

Congrats on your baby girl and on your efforts to feed her (efforts with both ffing AND bfing)

Has HV talked to you about a SNS device (Supplimentary Nursing System). see here for one

They can be really useful at increasing milk supply in mums with low milk supply as the formula/pumped milk is put in the pouch and tubes taped (I think) to nipples so in order for baby to have suppliments they have to nurse as well. This means your breasts get stimulation and baby gets whatever you are currently producing too.

Have you looked at Kelly Mom website? It has some fantastic advice. I've taken the liberty of copying some links for you:-

Establishing and Maintaning Supply

this link is if you get supply up

This site is full of good advice and help for mums with low supply

Reread my message to you and wanted to clarify a few points :-

the comment on effort with ffing AND bfing wasn't about you mixed feeding but the effort you have put into doing both of those things at the same time as well as pumping. All those things are a full time job in themselves let alone combined.

If you are at peace with what you are doing then don't change just because you feel it is more 'natural' to be exBFing. It is natural to love your child and do what you can with out driving yourself batty. If FFed is working out and doing all/some of the things suggested in my links is going to push you over the edge or make yourself miserable then don't do it.

Also to clarify something in your OP about your supply being about 50-60mls a day. Is this based on weighing before and then after a bf? (Don't take clothes/nappy off baby or change after a feed. The only thing that is important is the difference between the 2 measurements).

Or is this based on your pumping output?

I ask as when I fed my 6 month old and my 2 year old (approx 30 feeds a day between them) but was not able to pump a drop. Pumping output is not in and of itself indicative of milk production just ability to respond to a pump. Obviously if you can't pump much and baby isn't have 6-8 wet nappies a day and is fussy/unsettled/shrunken fontanelle then you would have very good reason to think low supply.

I'm not doubting you but sometimes mums are told they have low supply purely based on their ability to pump.

I do hope I haven't upset you or offeneded you or indeed anyone else. I'm about to start training as a peer supporter and I'm nervous as hell about upsetting mums

Hi first

again I don't have any advice but am full of admiration for you and what your doing. I gave up trying to breastfeed very early on with my dd who's 17 days old now, partly due to feeling guilty asking the really busy midwives in the hospital to keep helping me with getting her latched on and partly due to me having no confidence in my own ability to breastfeed.

Since then I have been very upset and tearful that I gave up so easily, tried to ask the local breastfeeding unit if it was too late to start and was told to leave her on formula as she had lost a bit of weight which made me feel I'd really blown it

I emailed La Leche and they have encouraged me to try again as it's not too late for me to give it a go, something I wasn't sure of.

Am building up the courage to start again this weekend, the info that they have sent me is really good so they might be able to help you but in my book you're doing great and should be proud of yourself.

I know thats not much use practically for you but hope it boosts you a bit

Hi first,

I jut wanted to share a story with you about my SIL. She had similar problems to you with her milk supply and had to FF. However, she perserved with offering the breast (but not pumping as it was SO demoralising) and eventually managed to establish mixed feeding (by about 5-6 months). 12 months later, she still does that.

Now, I know you would ideally like it to be all BF, but you can't kill yourself in the process. You sound as if you are tired out and at your wits end. Any BF is good news for your baby, any AT ALL. FF will not harm your baby at all either.

On the basis of this, I would say to you that your should stop the pumping as it is demoralising you too much. Anyway, pumping does not stimulate milk production like a baby. Concentrate on offering the breast before your FF and try to offer both breasts before you give her the bottle.

If it works, excellent. If not, its not the end of the world. Yur baby will grow to be happy and heathly just the same. As one poster has said you have already given her the best bit of the BF the colostrum.

Your happiness, sanity and health are also of first importance. NEVER forget that. The better you feel you'll be able to do everything better.

Well done for being so dedicated. You are doing a great job.

In my eyes, trying to bf is the main thing (if you can that is i know some cannot re medication etc). I ff DD1 after 2 weeks. She is now 12, very healthy and in top sets for every lesson so has done great. I think any time is beneficial!

Thank you all, it's nice to hear some reassuring words, have been feeling very down today.

Verity, those links are great, thank you. And you didn't upset me at all, of course! The amounts I'm guessing are based mostly on hand expressing and how many 'gulps' she takes at the breast before just mindlessly sucking. Although I can't know for sure, I'm inclined to guess that 50ml is more a generous guestimate than a conservative one. And 20 feeds per day?! Wow!

It's interesting you mentioned the SNS- I started a thread about them a few days ago, and while there was another poster who was interested in trying one, I'm not sure anyone had any experience. I'm watching one on ebay at the mo, but if not will get one next week. If nothing else, it will give me that lovely 'on breast' time with her, and allow her to get something from it too- feel ever so sad when I look at her little face while she's sucking and sucking, confused as to why nothing's coming out A poster mentioned in another thread about how they felt they were 'pretend breastfeeding' and that's EXACTLY how I feel- that I'm playing at it, not really doing it iyswim?

Nics- that really is great, I wish you the very best of luck in your efforts- Tiktok and the others on here have lots of experience with women relactating, am sure you'll get lots of support and help!

The story about your SIL is lovely to hear also Catitinahat, I pray the same will happen for me. And I think you're right about the pumping- I'm giving it back to LLL after this month is up- partially due to cost but mostly because as you say, it really is quite demoralising- I find I get more out (at least a few mls anyway rather than nothing!) by hand expressing- which is also much faster!

Sorry, 30 feeds per day... how did you have time to eat or sleep?! I'm very impressed, you must be so proud

First,
I'm sure it will work out for you too. My SIl was quite surprised in the end, at 8 months she said to me that her DS was getting more breast than he had ever done as a newborn.

I told you this story because we (I generalise about my own experience here) tend to think that if bf is not established well straightaway it will inevitably tail off due to reduced supply. Not so in the case of my SIL, in fact, it got better and better after the first rocky month and a half.

I also would like to repeat my comment about you looking after yourself too (hard I know at this stage). Happy mummy = happy baby. Even if this means taking a break (if you can) and leaving him/her with your dp/family member/friend so you can get to sleep.

Hey, just wanted to add my support, you are doing fantastically. It sounds to me if you LO has a fantastic latch and is willing to suck for a long time things will get better and better, especially if using the SNS. My advice would be to just keep latching her on every hour if you can manage it. You should be able to tell how much she is getting my seeing if her poo is seedy or not.
I would also stress that you should find some really good help (I got loads of conflicting advice from every HV i saw) and then just keep trying for a few more weeks.
I pumped for my LO until she was 7 months old, at the end I was only getting 1 fl oz so I stopped. I also felt I could stop them, any earlier I would have felt bad.
GOOD LUCK!

Actually just thought, has your milk actually come in yet, maybe this is still colostrum. Have you had the engorgement? Do you also know that your placenta came away properly? Apparently that can make a difference.

Echoing catinahat - I had real problems bf at first and ended up in hospital too. We now mix feed or top up (not sure of difference - she gets more BM than F) and my milk supply seems to be getting better and better - DD is 12 weeks.

The guilt is horrible, isn't it? Also in my case I had severe wounded pride and combined with the birth and the general topsy-turvyness of those first days and weeks cried lots about it too. However you are doing FABULOUSLY. You CAN continue and if you decide not to you are still a fabulous mum. It is FINE to FF.

My dad said something v helpful at the time actually, which was that if I wasn't feeling guilty/anxious about that, I would find something else to worry/guilt about. It is an anxious time. You are doing amazingly well.

Hi firstontheway, purely on your question about the small amounts: like so many others, I've had my own breastfeeding travails and asked a similar question (in different context) about the benefits of small amounts of breastmilk just the other day. an MNer very helpfully pointed me to this link on kellymom which is about the benefits of partial breastfeeding - one of the points made is that "Research has shown that the benefits of breastfeeding are generally dose-related: the more breastmilk, the greater the benefit. But even 50 ml of breastmilk per day (or less - there is little research on this) will help to keep your baby healthier than if he received none at all. In fact, the immunities in mom's milk have been shown to increase in concentration as the quantity of milk decreases." That cheered me up. I hope it works for you too! Don't feel guilty, you're doing a great job

Hello Firstontheway, I think you've got your first now.
It can be so difficult to get into breastfeeding, for me the supply was not a problem but the pain was. For me it was worse than giving birth or the dentists.
I persevered, but I got a depression.
On my 2nd and 3rd babies I could do it without the depression, maybe I would have had that first time round anyway, just please look after yourself.

Hi Firstontheway just wanted to say that you sound like a wonderful, dedicated Mum. I think you can feel very proud of your huge efforts to feed your baby. As others have said, even a small amount will make a difference to your baby and you may find that your milk supply improves as time goes on.

I also think that there is more to the decision to bf/ff than nutrition and either way it has to be the right decision for the whole family.

Thanks all, am feeling more positive today, managed to give a 20ml EBM feed last night (hand expressed after feeds through the day) which made me eel quite proud really!

LieofByron that is EXACTLY the kind of link I wanted, thank you!! Just some 'proof' that a teeny amount of BM actually makes a diference... plus my HV might actually have been talking some sense for once about the concentration of vitamins/ antibodies, shocker!

Milk is definitely 'milk' and not colostrum- became engored on day 3, but it dissapeared after 24hours and my milk went with it for some reason. Am going to continue with feeding and hand expressing but quit the pumping I think, it's just so soul destroying! I think I just need reassurance every now and then that what I'm doing is worth it iyswim, and not a huge waste of mine and DDs time

Firstontheway,

30 times a day does sound a lot but if you take into account 8 night feeds (with me mostly asleep) and DD1's feeds lasting a minute or so, it's really not bad! Plus I'm not proud - I'm medicated!

I'm so pleased you've decided to give up pumping. There really is no point working hard at something just so you can then use it as a big stick to beat yourself up with . Breastfeeding shouldn't be about a self-flagellation, it just gets all those 'bfing is sexual' people's panties in a bunch.