Daily Mail Article of a lady who committed suicide because she could not breastfeed.

[pigletmania]

I read recently of a lady who committed suicide because she was not able to breastfeed.I know that his may not be the only factor for her to do this, but may have been the icing on the cake so to speak.

I have read the information on breastfeeding on Mumsnet and other forums, and advice from LLL and NCH, which undoubtedly state that breast is best, and how its superior to cows milk, and how a baby should be drinking human milk not cows milk etc. A lot of new mums do have problems in feeding, suffer from postnatal depression, have had complications during birth, and reading this can exacerbate the problem, thus making them feel like they are inadequate and not a good mum if they do not breastfeed, and if they do ff their baby it will grow up to be ill, stupid and and fat which is wrong!

Being able to breastfeed your baby is only a tiny percentage of being a good mum, and mums who are not able to breastfeed should not be made to feel bad because they ff their baby. As long as the baby is getting nutrition, and is happy and healthy, and has a happy and healthy mum both mentally and physically that is the main thing. Better to have a mum who ff their baby, then no mum at all, unlike this poor baby in the article!

OOO tiktok - this thread is almost about the thread I was on yesterday [iykwim?]

How to impart information - we say we want informed choice - but in a way that doesn't then become percieved as pressue/bf militant horridness should bf be a challenge. Or any aspect of parenting.

Obviously care needs to better, and more plentiful, but leaving that out of it, I personally have real struggles with this area. How to give people the knowledge I am told I ought to [by my regulatory body and by women themselves]. Even though it may, in the long run, bite them!

I say this as a mum who has been firmly bitten by my weaning in a frankly stupid way because I was told too, and because I didn't find out enough about allergies etc. But now I have knowledge - I feel bashed. But I want to know to be in control, and I cant have it all ways.

I want to see the services get it right, but I don't know anymore what right is. I know what the right sort of actual bf support is, but I am talking about the promotion of parenting choices and helping people make informed choice here.

For me the second time around there was no alternative. Ds was refusing to latch on, I was expressing what I could he was jaundiced, unresponsive and borderline dehydrated.

But by being fully informed of all the facts and the risks I was able to make an informed decision I was happy with which was to use formula in conjunction with ebm

When I had dd all the pussyfooting around "oh formula is just as good etc etc, you'll find breastfeeding too difficult" made me not even try, hence my obsession about it.

islandofsodor - isn't it wierd that one person can recieve too much pro bf info, and another not enough [I think this is your experience of dd1?]. What on earth is going on?

With dd1 I never saw the same midwife twice so my antenatal care was patchy to say the least. I had some issues about the thought of breastfeedins and my family all did and still do firmly beleive bottle is best.

I think that having the opportunity to build up a good relationship with your health professionals is vital.

I also wanted to breastfeeding my dd who is 15 days old at the moment but felt I had no confidence in my own ability to be able to feed her sucessfully.

This was partly due to not feeding my ds when he was born and having a lot of pain with him latching on and also the hospital I was in to give birth was very busy so I felt guilt looking for help all the time whilst I was trying to feed my dd so gave up and gave her formula.

I am so annoyed at myself for not persevering with trying to establish it even phoning up the breastfeeding unit at a hospital and sobbing down the phone to the woman at the other end, she advised to carry on with formula as my dd had lost 9oz since birth and needed to get her weight back up and not confuse the issue with trying to feed her myself again.

I was upset at that as I had hoped to be told to go for it so hearing that made me feel I had missed out on the opportunity to give my dd the best start and with that came the guilt that I couldn't make the effort early on to stay with it.

I tried using a pump to express but got very little out so I am now still feeling bad about the lack of effort I made,(her weight has went up 6oz again though) and I would have paid for support in my own house if it had been available.

This will be the last child I have so I really wanted to get it right iyswim this time but felt my lack of confidence probably hindered me even before she was born.

Sounds like you worked very hard and she revieved breast milk for an amount of time, which you should try to remember when you feel bad nicsniigsnags - you describe rubbish care from the services. I have much sympathy for you. If you want to leave your guilt here I will look after it for you

IofS - I agree about relationship building. My only reservation is if the relationship thrust on you is with someone under par/different style/and so on. You can imagine.
There is a small something to be said for being able to meet a few, lets say midwives, and then being able to run with the one who seems best for you.

What did people do before formula? Why are all these mothers allowed to go along upsupported? There is absolutely no point in making people, who are clearly trying to do their best for their babies, feel guilty.

It's not very helpful for me just to sit here with my head in my hands, I know, but I find it all so mystifying.

Thank you for your words tree, wish I could leave the guilt somewhere, hormones don't help I guess

I know I shouldn't beat myself up about it but I am, despite people saying not too, the fault lies with me not being able to say well she's on formula now so get on with it, hopefully the feelings will go soon and I'll wonder what I was stressing about

I dunno nic - mums carry entire suitcases of guilt around. And even when we deal with one aspect, we find another to feel guilty about. It's almost a habit in some ways. And also society and the media and the 1000 conflicting messages we see every day.

Really - leave it with me, start practising feeling guilt free today. I do, every so often. I decide to shake myself and say 'I did the best I could on the day'. I feel a good inch taller following the shake! It creeps back again tough....

SLF - Have head in hands too. What ways are mums made to feel guilty? I have my own ideas but would like to hear yours.

Do breast is best posters? But then how to get the word out to the totally unaware. Does telling peopole about the nutritional benefits of bm? But if people don't know they may not think of bf, such is its small role in the general population.

What do you all think?

I know I think the DM should piss off. I know that much. It tried to tell me I was a sponger if I stayed at home with bubs, and that bubs would be a criminal if I worked. In one edition!

I wish that in antenatal classes any perceived negatives were addressed properly ie

Pain
Lack of latch
Feelings of frustration with BF
Feelings of embarassment re BF in public/in front of in-laws etc.
etc.

I feel that these are conspicuously overlooked in order to present BF as a "happy happy joy joy" experience for mum and baby. Which it IS, for lots, but not all. I feel that any negatives surrounding BF become the "elephant in the room" and it just doesnt help when BF is not a dream, for one reason or another.

Why can't BF classes show things like how to use BF bras, tops, covers, wraps etc. How to deal with BF in front of others. Asserting your right to BF. Acknowledgement that not every mum can BF sucessfully at first BUT there is a lot of help out there if it doesn't go smoothly instantly.

Yo uare right. It is an insult to people and an error of judgement to do the 'happy happy days' thing. Like 'if you are mobile in labour it won't hurt' Such setting peopl eup for a fall if it does.

There are no sure fire outcomes are there? Some will find bf happens ok, others will abttle with positioning and attachment, others will battle with th elifestyle bf demands [like whopping your boob out in Tesco]

NHS classes tend to be rushed. My NCT classes [I went for dh, and to enjoy them as a mum instead of being a blooming midiwfe all the time] I'm sorry to say were 'la la happy days and the health proffs wil sort it out if you have problems'. No mention of said problems really. I think my own classes presented a more realistic view but only because I really took oains over them .

I think yes Tiktok that the after care was bad, no support at home to bf plus also very nervous husband who thought that we should be able to see what she drinks so i expressed which failed, and milk was no more so had to use formula. When all the parents had gone a week later, tried to bf again but my little girl did not want to latch so gave up.

i think that my previous views on bf Tiktok was that i thought that bf would be easy come completely naturally so why mothers would not bf were beyond me, of course i knew the benefits that is why i really wanted to do it. i know different now that it does not always come naturally and it seems quite a lot of women need support at home by a bf nurse or counseller which should be provided by the NHS like a midwife is. though easier said than doen.

Oh piglet, both and for you.

DoH has the message totally wrong imo, it is natural but it is not always instinctive. Even in babies sometimes!

I think its too easy to use breastfeeding for a reason for suicide. The cause of this poor woman's death was a general lack of support and isolation. People with mental health problems are not deemed worthy of public money.

In the past community midwives visted new mothers every day for at least 10 days. With my daughter I was only visted three times by a midwife after the birth of my daughter inspite of having a home birth.

Also our GP surgery which has 17000 patients has no health visitor at the moment! Seven years ago it had three health vistors.

"NHS classes tend to be rushed. My NCT classes [I went for dh, and to enjoy them as a mum instead of being a blooming midiwfe all the time] I'm sorry to say were 'la la happy days and the health proffs wil sort it out if you have problems'. No mention of said problems really. I think my own classes presented a more realistic view but only because I really took oains over them ."

All NCT teachers/NCT bfc's do things in their own way.

A local bfc teaches the bfc on my course, but I also cover challenges to breastfeeding and how to overcome them as part of my antenatal courses. I get parents working on real scenarios, like the ones you get posted here, talking about how it feels to struggle with breastfeeding, and about common 'glitches'. I integrate breastfeeding into every facet of the course, including posnatal depression, going back to work, coping with tiredness.... everything.

I've observed our local NHS classes and not been madly impressed. One class I saw recently involved the midwife spending 45 minutes talking about the benefits of breastfeeding and 10 minutes talking about latch and positioning... and nothing else. I can see though that someone else might have done it better - not all midwives are great facilitators.

The really hard thing for the midwives at our local hospital is that they have to do all the speil on breastfeeding without openly acknowledging the fact that breastfeeding support on the postnatal wards is often extremely poor.

From my point of view teaching mums about breastfeeding without warning them about the very real challenges they often face before they're even discharged from hospital is very unfair - you're setting them up to fail and to feel bad about it.

Reallytired - this mother was in the US. She will have had no community visits at all.

fabsmum - NCT bfcs dont really do things their own way They will devise the class themselves, but will be observed in training and anyone going on and on about benefits will not pass that assignment. Your description of what happens sounds the usual thing - struggles and everyday issues, rather than 'why breastfeed?'. In my classes, I talk about the reality of bf, the fact it can hurt,where to get support and so on.

I think I am typical.

I don't recognise classes where the facilitator does not acknowledge that some women find it hard. I keep hearing they exist, though!

fabsmum - oh yes of course re: people doing things their own way, my post was my experience only. Sadly my experience wasn't good, the nct bf advice was not related in anyway to the reality of having nhs care and gave us no coping tools for problem solving. I had other issues too though, like being aske to 'give' some of the class

the classes I gave as a midife, I had 2 2 hours sessions. To do everything. That was it.

Like you, I tried to talk about bf in an inclusive way, to try to let people build a picture of bf in the life they lead iyswim and the reality it can be. I took such pains as I had to cover that, plus ff and babycare in 2 hours!! I am relatively proud of the classes as they were under challenging conditions.

x-post tiktok.

Tiktok, in my class the pain was mentioned but in the following way:

Participant: "I've heard BF can be painful, my mum said it was terrible for her"

Class leader: "Pain is down to you not getting the latch right. If you are latching correctly there is no pain. Next!".

Yes it's technically correct but it still lacks something IYSWIM?? It was so bluntly put it actually felt rude to the participant's mother, bizarrely, like she was a fool for suffering when all the time it was her fault for not having a good latch going on.

IMO a better response would have been:

"Yes it can be painful certainly at first. That's normal for a lot of women. It can be enormously helped if not eradicated altogether by a decent latch. If you can't get a decent latch going at first there are plenty of counsellors to be found here and here who will help you".

Sorry, missing the end of my post:

Therefore, that class leader has addressed pain and if she and we were asked to tick a box "Did leader address pain, yes or no" then we would have to tick Yes.

But it wasn't a particularly useful addressing of the issue.

"fabsmum - NCT bfcs dont really do things their own way"

Beg to differ - I have observed a fair number of NCT classes run by different bf counsellors and found that they all do things their own way! Obviously there is some common ground and a basic 'curriculum', but the approach and tone can really vary. (to clarify by the way, my comment about a class which was predominantly about the benefits of bf - that was an NHS class run by a midwife, not an NCT class).

Like you, I have NEVER observed a class where it hasn't been acknowledged that bf can be challenging. Again, I've been told by clients later that they wished the class had covered 'X, Y and Z' and I stand there and think - um, it did! I get this sometimes with my antenatal classes too.

If breastfeeding had now worked out for me, I would have been devastated.

Not because of being 'bullied' (as is sometimes reported here and in the media) or because of external pressure, but because I felt it to be an intrinsic part of mothering my baby.

I don't get all this about breastfeeding being 'shoved down your throat', was not my experience at all. Most of the GP surgeries I see through work don't even have the much vilified posters on display.

Choc - yes, a poor answer to the question

fabsmum - you're right that approach and tone is not the same. I just meant that as you say, they are not permitted to stray miles away from what would be expected as coverage.

Re pain - it always comes up in bf classes (how can it not?? Every class includes people who have known mothers for whom it was painful and of course I cover it). I say 'pain with breastfeeding is common, and in fact it's one of the reasons why people stop before they planned to.....' and I go on to say how important positioning and attachment is, and how they can enable their babies to attach without pain and what to do if it hurts blah blah blah. I do not say it's normal, though. Common does not = normal

I've said this before so sorry! But it does make you feel awful when you can't. I couldn't ever make more than about 25mls of watery stuff and I tried every method known to increase it. It made me very sad and if I'd had PND as well it would have been devastating.

I'd been a vegan for years and believed firmly that cows' milk was for calves and human milk was for babies. I didn't buy so much as a bottle or any formula prior to having baby, totally believing that with knockers like mine, I'd feed the world.

The tight lipped midwife who came round just looked horrified as baby lost more weight and cried. No one dare say the F word! I felt such a complete flop. Eventually he did fab on formula but my God THE GUILT! Everytime he coughed or sneezed I assumed it was my fault.

Now I can rationalise it all, how silly i feel! There must be 100s of healthy, happy souls on the planet who were formula fed.

I agree with everything that's been said about the Mail (I teach Media and English, not an expert but I can spot emotive, subjective language when I see it!) BUT I'm sure the combination of unable to BF and PND was hell. Poor, poor woman...if only she'd got on here or spoke to someone. I still think breast is, if not the best, the ideal but it is scary, the degree to which the ideology seems to make those of us who can't or don't want to feel so shit!

My goodness quite a lot of you had problems to, no they do not address the issues that can happen when trying to bf in NHS antenatal classes, they make it so simple like you just pop your baby on your breast and away you go. it is like that for some, but not others. That could be partly why some women might feel like failures, something that is meant to be so simple and natural is so hard you are not prepared.

Before formula, i understand that women used to wet nurse or use sweetened milk and other formulas. i think that mabey in the poorer countries and in tribes the women in the community would help with the bf if a lady found it difficult. I believe that this is more difficult in the society that we live in as people tend to be more insular and have less extended family members with them, such as sisters, auties, grandmothers cousins to give them help or advice.