Do you say anything when you know someone has been given v bad BF advice in the past, but they are ok with it?

[Caz10]

Sorry that is very poorly worded but a post has just made me think...

Amongst my friends I can count at least 5 who stopped breastfeeding earlier than they intended, due to what I now know to be very poor advice. Individually they have been told things like

• their baby was too big to be breastfed
• you need to give a baby bottles after 6pm as your supply runs low then
• you have to stop BF when you go back to work etc etc

They were all upset at the time, but just pleased to have done it for as long as they did, and still believe they had no option but to stop. I see absolutely no point in saying they were given poor advice and haven't said anything. However from time to time it crosses my mind that this is probably part of the reason that there is so much poor info floating about out there.

What does anyone else do in this situation?

I am too tired to be as eloquent as some people have been here! But - and mainly in reply to mrsbaldwin - the kind of situation I was thinking of is like this example:

I am with 2 other mums, 1st time mums like me, all of us probably going to go on and have at least 1 more baby. I am bf-ing my (eg) 4mth old dd, they both bottle feed, so we are just generally chatting about feeding etc.

Friend 1: You're so lucky to still be breastfeeding, I felt terrible when I had to stop, but he's just too big to be breastfed

Friend2: Yes I had to stop too, I didn't have any milk in the evenings when he was really hungry, so I had to start giving him bottles and he just seemed happier with that. I was gutted, I wanted to BF for much longer

Caz10:...
...well in RL I just smiled and mmmm-d because I didn't know what to say!! Both friends had big birth weight boy babies, I had a teeny girl, and they saw that as the reason I "could" feed and they "couldn't".

Similarly, another friend with a toddler said to me at around 5mths "I'm so glad the feeding is going well for you. I was so sad having to stop when I went back to work"

Caz10: " I was thinking about carrying on feeding her when I go back, at least morning and evening"

Friend: "oh no, you can't do that"

Now I knew she was wrong, but I didn't say, because I felt it would hurt her - my dd is now 16mths and has been mix fed since I went back at 9mths, bf-ing happily whenever I am there and taking formula then cows milk when I am not.

These women will pass that sort of information onto other people - I wouldn't like that to happen - but I also don't want to hurt them.

And my point was?! D'oh! What I meant to add there was that I am not talking about starting up random conversations with other mums and asking them about bf-ing. It's what to do when someone presents you with an absolute "fact" - which you know to be wrong. In terms of "the greater good" (and you can say that in the same tone of voice you said "public health issue" ) - I feel I am letting other mums down by not making an attempt to challenge their views in some way.

Now the silly thing is, if friends stated a "fact" about some other issue, eg a political issue, I wouldn't hesitate to say "oh i don't think that's true, I believe it to be xyz" - and I would back it up, say why I knew this to be the case. But bf-ing just seems such a sensitive area

"These women will pass that sort of information onto other people"

Will they though? Or is it just something they felt they had to say to stop you from feeling left out as the only breastfeeder?

I don't think they'll actively pass it on unless they speak to someone else re babies/feeding etc - but that is a highly likely situation! They both work PT, go to baby groups etc, will probably have another baby and therefore mix with other new mums...there is a high likelihood that they'll chat to someone and say "oh I couldn't bf ds1 as he was a big baby". So that leaves the other person maybe thinking that you can't bf big babies. They tell another new mum...and so on.

I may be wrong but I didn't feel left out and I don't think they thought I did - they both expressed the sentiment that they were upset to have "had" to stop bf-ing. There is always the possibility as someone said above that they just wanted to stop, but supply issues etc are more "socially acceptable" reasons - especially when talking to someone who bfs

I know FFeeders who say this kind of thing to make breastfeeders feel better. Not everyone does have this huge emotional turmoil over breastfeeding but I know people who will pretend they do.

I would just leave them to it, personally.

If people are going to be swayed by chitchat like that at baby groups then they'll probably have already been felled by unhelpful MIL's/HCP's/media images etc etc etc

What are they trying to make breastfeeders feel better about?

What a fascinating thread.

In answer to Caz's original post, I think there are situations where women would and wouldn't find it useful/helpful/welcome to know they'd had bad advice.

Where I'm coming from I failed miserably (emphasis on miserably) at bf first time round, and struggled a lot to get to where I am now this time round, exclusively breastfeeding and very happy with that. I think ff is a chore and I hate every aspect of it. I also have an aversion on political grounds to giving my money to formula milk companies (it's difficult to be a militant breastfeeder who can't breastfeed!)

I got very upset on some breastfeeding mn threads, particularly ones where certain posters seemed to totally say no one should feed formula, or even that no one would if she knew what was in it etc etc, and where I felt under attack, guilty etc.

But I also posted about my experiences and I found a lot of support of various kinds from very pro-bf. Some was emotional support, but it was also really useful to find people who could say I'd had bad advice and poor support - I knew that already but some people might not - but also people who could give me and others having problems information about why advice was bad, and could give better advice - this time I got bad and good advice, and finally was able to find my way through the maze.

DitaVonCheese, I'm really interested in your story about your grandmother, and wondered how old your father is/when this was. Was advice that breastmilk was "too rich" common at that time?

My mum's told me some stories about her experiences of childbirth (in 3 different decades/over an 11 year period) but and I'm interested but it has generally been at times when I'm feeling a bit emotional and we're having some disagreements about the whole experience/the advice I'm getting. My mum wanted to bf but only succeeded with her 3rd baby - my dad left her for someone else at the time I was born after 8 years of marriage so I think the problem was circumstances rather than advice. Actually, I can see that I accepted some of the misleading advice I was given and believed with my first baby because it was backed up by some of what my mum said about her experiences.

I've heard people say lots of things about how they're feeding which are based on stuff I don't necessarily agree with but I wouldn't say anything. For example, giving formula/introducing solids to encourage babies to sleep through the night - my bf ds2 actually seems to have a better sleeping pattern at the moment than my ff ds1 did at the same age, and I find it easier to bf him when he wakes up at night. I wouldn't tell anyone who switched to formula or mixed feeding in the situation that I've been in with both babies of poor weight gain that she's been given bad advice to do so just like that - one of my friends has done that, and I actually met MrsBaldwin in person at a baby group today and we didn't discuss feeding methods.

Caz, the conversation you describe is very different from initiating a conversation to tell someone she's been given bad advice. But I don't know what I'd say either. I think that if your friends really did want to bf and had been given bad advice this time that it would be helpful to know that 2nd time round. Perhaps you could say ooh, I really wanted to breastfeed, and I got good advice from friends/mumsnet/whereever it came from, and what some of that advice might have been. But while I read gagarin's first post and got cross (at the assumption that people don't really want to bf and make excuses), I think she and others clarified that point in a way that made me rethink.

Anyone approaching me to ask how feeding was going etc would drive me nuts - mainly because I was naive about all those groups and thought they'd be a laugh - though I'd meet other women not other mothers if you see what I mean. But were full of people being supportive - which I don't think is a bad thing at all, especially for those too shy to ask for help if they want it - just not for me. Far too much unsolicited solicitousness.

And MrsBaldwin - I have been taken to task for bottle feeding by a couple of earnest mummies too. But I imagine these people are generally interfering twats who feel motherhood gives them a special licence to share their new wisdom. I often give an apologetic response at first but now able to make it clear my conscience is clear, my children are thriving and I'm off to have a few cocktails.

I would hope that good friends would have discussed concerns and that I could talk them round before they gave up.
Or 'actually I don't think that advice is that accurate, if you look at this website or speak to xyz it says this..... iyswim.' Or perhaps we should look for a solution that will help type of response. Or 'How do you feel about that?'
I would have agreed with them after dd1 (big baby, hungry baby and poor latch), however, dd2 was bigger and fed for 6mths, so I know its cobblers about the big baby, hungry baby.

Funny, I was in this position when my friend decided not to have her 3 wk prem baby in her room at all (5lb 2oz) I asked her why and her response was well I wouldn't hear her not breathing. This would have been my response had I not researched more for dd2. I explained that it was actually likely that her and DH carbon dioxide contribute to stimulate the babies breathing. She still didn't change though. An educated and organised woman whose main priority was sleep, like me the first time round, however, unlike me she didn't research for dd2 and did exactly the same as her dd1.

"These women will pass that sort of information onto other people"

'Will they though??'

Yes, they will, and not just in quiet "mum-to-mum" situations. I have heard women broadcast to an audience about thier "too hungry" baby that they couldn't satisfy who was happier on formula. And so the myth continues.....

As or women "not knowing" and and giving up before they want to, so many women have totally unrealistic expectations of feeding and new-baby behaviour. They are misled into thinking that thier baby should feed every three or four hours and then sleep like a log in between. When thier bf baby wants to feed every hour or so and wakes if it's not held they are often told (by someone, HV, MW, MIL, friend, who ever) to give a top up bottle of formula, which of course makes the baby sleep for hours (because it's so much harder to digest than breastmilk) and bingo, mum believes her milk is not enough etc and the top-up/mix-feeding starts and before you know it mum has given up bf all together.

How many times have you heard "s/he was using me as a dummy" because people don't realise that comfort feeding is normal, or "I always ran out of milk in the evening and s/he wouldn't settle" because it's not widely known that cluster feeding between 5pm and 10pmish is actually very common, if not normal, and that it's not actually natural for a small baby to go to bed at 7 and sleep alone until it's next "scheduled" feed, and that sitting nursing on and of all evening is not just natural but good for mums milk supply and babies sleeping pattern. (and can be quite lovely, to snuggle on the sofa with a nice drink and some snacks and your favourite tv as you cuddle and nurse and chill until bedtime)

These myths need to be exposed, this cycle of mis-information has to be broken, it doesn't matter how many women leave hospital with a 3 day old bf baby, if they don't have the information they need so that they understand what to expect then they will almost certainly "fail" and be another statistic.

skinymini: I am a breastfeeding counsellor. I do not need to actively tout for business - were you trying to be rude or was it accidental ?

In the scenario described, I was in a support role, as I said. I was in an imaginery support group in a specific role. I was talking to Mrsbaldwin in this scenario. I wasn't talking to you. I imagine that I would be sensitive enough to pick up the vibes from you not to offend you by sharing that some mothers are not happy about their feeding...

APols tiktok, I genuinely wasn't trying to be rude, I can see why you thought I was though, so sorry.

I wouldn't use a leading, closed question, is all:

"are you ok with that, cos some women aren't"

Why not just "and how are you finding that?"

I think the "some women aren't" part really does contain a value judgement that what the woman doing is not quite good enough. Let her be the judge of that, I say.

Btw - that last line was not an invitation for lots of people to come and tell me that breast is always best etc etc. I know that. I think most mixed feeders know that, I just think that unless they've inititated a discussion about it they probably don't want a stranger to point it out to them.

skinnymini - yes, I can see a more open question like the one you suggest might well appear less leading and less potentially 'loaded'...sometimes, though, context and sensitivity to the person as they present themselves makes a closed question ok, and we are kidding ourselves if we think 'and how are you finding that?' will always come across as 100 per cent neutral. But it's a useful alternative!

True, being asked about it unsolicited at all would get my back up, so any kind of line of questioning would probably further annoy me.

FWIW mixed feeding was the one thing that did keep me breastfeeding, and I was therefore very happy with it. I was proud that I b/f for 6 months albeit with 2 bottles of formula a day, because I struggled very hard with it.

Someone else instigating a conversation about feeding while I was using a bottle would have irritated me.

I can't speak for anyone else though, so for every person who gets peed off you may find someone in the market for advice.

Actually, no one would have seen me with a bottle at a baby group as I used to hide in the toilets if I had to bottle feed my baby for exactly this reason.

Totally agree with Gagarin and MrsBaldwin.
I was one of the women that stopped BFing and moved to bottles because I just found it too much doing all the night feeds myself and coping with a boisterous 2 year old and a newborn all day by myself the next day.
When anybody questioned me even gently (and you find that everybody does at toddler groups!) I found myself saying to them things like 'It wasnt working out, my HV recommended we change to bottles' etc and incidentally my HV did tell me that if I wanted to move to bottles there was nothing wrong with that and I mustnt feel bad about not peservering.

I'm probably putting this really badly, but in short.. I did WANT to BF. I did try to BF but after a little while I just found it too much to cope with.
I feel more comfortable saying 'it didnt work for us' or 'I couldnt manage to BF for longer which was a shame' as to me thats the truth, even if a professional BF counsellor would say its not the truth as I could physically done it for longer iyswim.

I don't say anything. It is incredibly rare to be able to do so without cauting offence or upset.

It is frustrating though. I do agree that there needs to be a way of dispelling the myths to help women in the future. I do exactly that simply by feeding my enormous, hungry baby who is nearly 12 months old.

I don't bring the subject up ever, but people often ask, and in answer to their questions,

Yes, I exclusively breastfeed.
Yes, he had nothing but breastmilk until he was 6 months old.
Yes, my milk took a couple of days to come in.
Yes, he was a very big baby.
Yes, he was very hungry in the evenings.
Yes, he does still night feed sometimes.
Yes, it has been hard sometimes having 2 under 2 and breastfeeding.
Yes, I struggled tremendously with painful latch, bleeding nipples and posseting blood for weeks with my first baby.
Yes, I have been very prone to nasty bouts of mastitis this time.

Yes, it is possible.

I don;t say any of the above to be smug or patronising or judgmental. It is just the truth. I realise I have been very much luckier than some, but I don't consider I had a free pass either; I have really struggled at times. I find that often people are genuinely surprised that most of the above is possible, and they are surprised in a good way. I am living proof of how it can be.

I've resolved not to spend so much time typing on MN today - so this is a quick one ...

... but followers of this thread may be entertained to hear what happened to me yesterday afternoon.

I took DS to baby group - no unsolicited advice proferred. So far so good.

It was a hot, sunny day and I decided DS needed a sunhat or two to add to his burgeoning wardrobe. So on the way home from the baby group I popped into the nearby branch of Mothercare.

As I paid for the sunhats DS woke up and started crying.
"He's hungry," I told the shop assistant. "We'd better race home."
"We have a feeding room here in the shop," she said. "Down the back, on the right."

So off I trot, clutching the wailing baby.

The feeding room is not empty - there's another lady there, perhaps Sudanese at a guess, in floor-length hijab and headscarf.
"Hello," she says and strikes up a conversation.

DS glugs away on a bottle of formula meanwhile (he'd done BF at the baby group just previous).

"Are you doing BF-ing?" asked the lady.
"Some BF, some bottle," I said.
"Yes, that's good," said the lady. "I can tell you - and this (pointing at her own DS) is my third baby - that it's best to first BF them and then give them a bottle because it fills them up and they go to sleep - bingo (or the Arabic equivalent thereof)!"

I was so entertained at being offered some advice (given I'd spent ages yesterday typing on the internet about advice-giving) that I quite forgot to put any baby poo on her (see my post earlier in thread).

What was this lady's motivation for unsolicitedly advising me (whether or not you agree with the advice)? Actually I think she was trying to make a connection. There aren't so many other circumstances where she and I might have ever struck up a conversation.

So I will add that to my list of women's reasons for seeking to advise others.

And that is the end of my MN-ing for today - will I be able to go a whole day without peeping ... dunno.

but how odd that she said to you 'are you doing BFing?' whilst watching you give a bottle of formula to your son..
If you hadnt been mixed feeding (and I'm sure as a % there are more FFers than mixed feeders) then you would have been
and maybe even a bit if you had tried and failed to BF!
But really I can see your point that she was just trying to make a connection and that is a nice thing.

I think my take on the whole thing is that very very few people do not want to Bf at all and dont even consider it.
The vast majority want to BF. Try really quite hard to BF but find it too difficult.
If someone is struggling then they should be offered all the advice under the sun on how to keep going.
If they reach the point where they just cant do it any more then advice after that point saying 'you could have done it if you'd just tried harder' is a bit pointless and hurtful imo

That was a very long quick post MrsB. I wonder if your friend in Mothercare was Somali, there's quite a lot of Somali Muslim families in this area.

Incidentally, as I wanted to breastfeed first time round and didn't manage it, anyone who made the mistake of getting into a discussion with me about feeding was likely to have me burst into tears on them. If you talk to other women about how they're feeding their babies, you might need to be prepared for anger or baby poo, or just being cried on.