Please help - have I completely ruined bf chances?

[plantsitter]

I am quite upset about this so please be gentle.. thanks.

DD is 12 days old and last week had lost weight and not put back on enough. I had real problems breastfeeding to begin with (I think due to a not very nice birth experience and a rubbish hospital but I won't go into it) and thought I had begun to sort it out, but the midwife sent me to the doctor, who sent me to A&E, who after establishing there was nothing at all wrong with DD - no dehydration, no high sodium levels etc - told me to top up with formula and basically stood over me while I did.

Now we are offering the breast every time and then giving her a bottle of formula afterwards (or expressed breast milk if I've managed it).

I really wanted to exclusively breastfeed and I feel like a failure - but apart from that I don't know how practically to start cutting down the formula. I'm pretty sure my supply is fine for the moment - I am leaking milk all over the place - but I don't understand how DD can seemingly drink loads of milk from my breasts and then go on to polish of most of a bottle. Is it likely I have just got the latching on thing wrong? Or do babies just eat whatever you give them?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

what a shame you had such rubbish help...maybe your baby needed the formula, maybe he didn't, but it is very unlikely he needed it every feed. Not your fault - you had a fright and wanted to fix things.

You are not a failure. The people who are paid to help you have failed you in not giving you the right support to move back to full bf.

You need to speak to someone who will listen and who understands about early days feeding.

If your baby had started to gain weight again, before the hospital visit, then ensuring frequent, effective, bf would have been good...and that can still happen, but it needs to start now to protect your milk supply. It may be you need to cut down the formula gradually...where is the midwife? Can she help with a plan? It does not matter what your supply is like at the moment - it's getting it into the baby that counts It's great you feel your supply is still good though...you can put your baby back to the breast in that case, instead of giving formula, but it will help if someone observes this. This is not a plan to concoct on a talkboard,really, as observation is important.

It's true, by the way, that babies may eat whatever is on offer

Thanks for such a quick and helpful reply, TikTok.

The midwife is visiting this afternoon to weigh DD again. It is all a bit hit and miss as there are a couple of really nice and helpful midwives and more who are frankly just scary and don't listen to you at all (I am not usually such a wuss by the way - I am just feeling a bit overwhelmed by this whole thing).

I was thinking of suggesting to her that I top up every other feed to begin with and gradually phase out the formula. And I would like her to look at the way I'm feeding DD. Was also thinking about going to one of the many breastfeeding coffee mornings around here, which I think I will do.

Thanks again - I take your point that I had better get some RL help.

Sounds good, plantsitter - good suggestions to make to the midwife. Also will help to go to a group.

I'm no expert on breastfeeding, but wanted to sympathise with your lack of support from MWs/hospital. I went through similar with my DD (now 5 weeks) - as soon as we were sent into hospital they said we had to give formula and basically terrified us into it!

What is your midwife like? I saw three who all said I was BFing fine and didn't think it was important that DD hadn't done any wet nappies for five days! Then I saw one really good one who actually watched me feed and saw that DD wasn't latched on properly, and she sat for ages showing me what to do, what to look for in DD's jaw movements, etc. Unfortunately then she had to send us to hospital because of poor weight gain and we never saw her again. But if you find a MW like that, or someone who can help you, don't let them out of your sight!

Whatever happens, you are not a failure. If you want to try to go back to exclusively BFing, keep ringing support lines, etc and get someone to sit with you while you feed. If you do continue to mix feed or formula feed, please don't beat yourself up about it - your DD is healthy and you've done the very best you can, with very poor support.

Sorry cross posted.

iwouldgoouttonight - that's a terrible story. Do you really mean wet nappies - none for 5 days and the midwives said that was ok? Do you mean he didn't wee for days? Even if he didn't poo for 5 days that is a serious warning sign but no weeing for 5 days is life-threatening.

You might want to think about writing to complain about this.

Do you feel it is too late for you to start again now

Thanks, Iwouldgoouttonight. That really is a terrible story. Are you breastfeeding now?

Yes I really mean wet nappies - they were completely dry from the day she was born until her five day check (when we saw the nice helpful midwife). The other MWs said that modern disposables are so absorbent I probably hadn't noticed the wee. I put in a piece of cotton wool to see if that got wet, left it all night and it was completely dry in the morning - I kept it and the nappy to show the midwife and she said the wee had probably evaporated.

When we were sent to hospital they said she was seriously dehydrated which is why she had to have formula straight away. The nice midwife who referred us was really reluctant as she knew that once we were in hospital there wouldn't be any BF support (as we were on the children's ward rather than back to the maternity ward). I'm now FFing - during the week we spent in hospital I had to express rather than feed directly and I just couldn't get enough out - was expressing a pitiful trickle after an hour or two on the breast pump, and eventually I was so exhausted I didn't want to do it any more. I don't want to start again now as I'd be constantly worried about DD becoming ill again as I don't feel I have enough support to feel confident or feeding properly.

I lost a lot of blood during the birth due to a retained placenta and was very anaemic and I've since read that can affect milk supply, but none of the midwifes mentioned it. I have thought about complaining but not sure how I go about it - I only have the number of the MW office and need to speak to someone higher up I imagine?

Anyway, sorry, didn't mean to take over your thread! Hope you can get better support than I did and good luck, the first few weeks are so tiring and emotional its sometimes so hard to know what to do for the best!

plantsitter get in touch with a breastfeeding counsellor /group in your area. They are trained to help you with this and know a lot more than midwives about BF unfortunately some midwives only ever have an hours training on BF!
Good websites with contact details are NCT ABM and La Leche League.
There has been a thread on here recently about a mum who is going back to BF after stopping completely and she was getting there so keep your chin up it is possible.

Hi Plantsitter

You are definately not a failure, you are doing brilliantly to keep wanting to feed despite the lack of help and encouragement you have received so far so keep up the good work!
When my DD2 was born we had to wait for some test results to come back before I was allowed to start feeding her myself but as soon as we got the green light (which was only about 12 hours) we got on with it and never looked back. We are still BF 16 months later.
It isn't the easiest thing to do at first and it is a learning curve for you and your baby but once you have been doing it for a while you will relax and start to enjoy yourself.
Be prepared to get in for the long haul feeds though. Get some good movies or a book, pints and pints of water and some good healthy food.(You will be very hungry and thirsty) Have at least 1 pint every time you feed and drink as much as you can between feeds too.
I was amazed at how much and how long my dd fed in the beginning. So don't be put off and think you havn't got enough milk because DD is hungry all the time. This is just what they do.
As long as she is weeing and putting on weight she will be fine.
Go to your local BF support groups and make friends and get advice. There is not enough support for mums wanting to BF over here so get what help you can.
I can reccomend The Australian Breastfeeding Association site as this is the one I used they are brilliant, I am sure there are good ones here in the U.K too though.

Sorry for the long post.
Good Luck, You are doing a great thing for your baby so don't let anyone put you down.

Mummy2LZ- wrong and the need for this amount of fluid, sorry This amount of fluid - 1 pint for every feed plus more between - is far far too much and the OP could become quite ill

It is normal to be thirstier when bf, and drinking according to thirst is fine

Iwouldgoouttonight - those midwives are deperately in need of training. Another baby might become even iller You can complain formally or informally - get in touch with your local PALS or call NHS Direct for info about how to complain.

Well thats what I was told re drinking and I did and was not ill.
Guess I was in a hot country at the time though so may have been why?
My Sister is BF toa and was told the same here in the U.K .
But you don't have to follow advice on here anyway just do what you feel is right.
Read up on it and see what you think.
Whatever the amount reccomended you do need to drink plenty to keep going effectively.

It's never good to drink too much water, Mummy2LZ, wherever you are Your sister in the UK was badly informed...and you do not need to drink plenty to breastfeed effectively. Drinking to thirst is fine. Yes, I agree, it's useful to read up on these things and then decide.

Pediatrics. 1990 Nov;86(5):737-40.

Prolonged maternal fluid supplementation in breast-feeding.

Dusdieker LB, Stumbo PJ, Booth BM, Wilmoth RN.

"A randomized, crossover study design was used to evaluate the effect of prolonged maternal fluid supplementation on the milk supply of breast-feeding women. A total of 19 well-nourished women whose infants were solely breast-fed and thriving were enrolled when their infants were 90 to 120 days of age. Of this group, 15 women consumed at least a 25% increase in fluids above baseline for 7 days. Mean daily milk production was 767 +/- 178 mL for the baseline period and 744 +/- 138 mL for the increased fluid period. There was no significant change in milk production between baseline and increased fluid periods. No significant linear relationship between the percentage increase in fluid intake and percentage change in milk production was found."

I had a similar situation, and I found using nipple shields worked really well as my DD had gotten used to the bottle as well. I found she latched on and fed almost instantly when I got the nipple shields (avent, if we are allowed to say that), but you can make a rod for your back as she now prefers the shield to the 'real thing'. At any rate, my milk supply is strong, baby is getting fed exclusively on the breast and I will be going to a BF clinic next week to try to get her back to the nipple. Baby is almost same age as yours. It's not a perfect solution, but it has worked for me - it may be worth a shot.
Oh, and the shields were suggested by one midwife, and the next day a different one completely pooh-poohed it, but by that stage I was sold and DD was looking much happier. As they keep telling me, you have to find your own way...

Thanks for all the advice here.

Midwife came and had a look at the way I was feeding, said it was fine but I should feed more often if I am going to exclusively breastfeed and said DD did not look like a weight-loss baby and she thinks the birth weight was wrong!

Anyway she also told me there is a breastfeeding clinic at my doctor's surgery on Fridays so I will definitely go to that.

I'm a bit worried because DD is one to sleep through rather than wake and ask to be fed, so I think I will phase out the formula rather than just stop. We did notice the size of her poos got much bigger after she was being topped up so I think she did need some extra. For now we're going to top up every other feed and take it from there.

I drink a lot anyway, always have, so I'm drinking to thirst and it is LOADS.

Thanks again for the support.

Well there you go thats why its always best to read up on things.
I am thirsty enough to drink a pint glass when I feed so I do, but as it says up there you obviously don't need it.

Good Luck with the feeding.
Sorry if I misinformed you.

plantsitter - it's great that you got the advice and support you needed. I hope the breastfeeding clinic helps you even more.

Just wanted to point out that the reason your DD's poos got bigger after top ups is because there is more waste from formula (lots of extras that really don't need to be there!)- I don't think you should take this as a sign that she needed more. Good luck with your plan and keep us updated!

To increase your milk supply effectively you may have to feed at night - sorry!
This is when the hormone is highest for stimulating the milk production.
I am sure the group should help you on friday - and good luck !