Snacking and catnapping - vicious circle!

[CatDean]

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Have been there. Have you had your latch checked? Is he gaining weight OK? A bf expert will be along later I'm sure but in the meantime, I just wanted you to know that I sympathise. FWIW, I am still bf DS2 at the age of 9 months and I struggled with bf for at least the first 5 months (when all of a sudden it all clicked into place...)

With DS2, his latch was not that good and he struggled with my apparently "long" nipples. As he got bigger, he just got better at feeding. He's always been a grazer/snacker though.... But FWIW, I have just come back from The Gambia on holiday - have family out there - and spent time with my SIL who's bf an 11 month old. Her DD bfeeds at least 4 - 5 times EVERY HOUR - just climbs on, helps herself - suck suck suck - and gets off again. I think the idea of a routine and spaced regular feeds is a Western concept.... That's not terribly helpful, I know, when you're the one with your backside glued to the sofa unable to even go to the loo which is how I was. But it will get better, I promise. Good luck. Please persevere, I nearly gave up bf at your stage and am so, so glad I didnt.

AND, I could never express either. Still can't.

Have you seen a BFC?

When my dd2 was about the same age as your ds, she had trouble feeding. Kept coming off after a few minutes crying. I was told she had silent reflux and prescribed gaviscon (which I gave up on as she hated it so much and I couldn't handle the palaver of preparing it).

I took her (at the suggestion of umlellala) to an osteopath, and at the same time tried to reduce my supply a bit, and she improved.

I agree with Tryharder that it is a good idea to se a bf counsellor to get your latch checked, but it might also help to see an osteopath.

In any case I think they just get a lot better at the whole business at around 12 weeks, so it's worth hanging in there a bit longer!

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CatD How long have you been giving a bottle?

I would advise you to call one of the breastfeeding helplines, do you have the numbers?

It sounds to me like the bottle you are giving could be undermining your supply, although you need to talk this through.

I don't know who has advised spacing the feeds but this is bad advice and can also undermine your supply. Ideally you should be feeding everytime the baby so much as offers a grisle in your direction.

Are you offering both breasts at each feed?

Also, personally, I wouldn't ever TRY to get him to sleep. How do you think he coped when he was tired in the womb?

I panicked at your stage CatDean, and started giving topups which with hindsight I regret but you do what you do to cope...

Like your DS, my DS2 would only sleep for very short periods except when he was given the formula (I am anti-formula but I well appreciate it's attraction...). He only wanted to be carried, wouldn't go in a pushchair, wouldnt sleep by himself... I just spent 3 or 4 months carrying him around in a sling or holding him on my lap with my boobs permanently at the ready and luckily I believe in cosleeping because I learned to latch him on in the night and then go back to sleep.

I have to say he didnt cry when he was feeding but then I suppose if your DS has reflux, it's a different matter... But he was quite a fussy baby and never seemed full and certainly never had that "drunk" look from bf that other Mn -ers talk about, so like you, I fretted about my supply. But his weightgain was OK. I saw loads of bfcs and was told by a LLL councellor that I trusted that DS2 was just a crap feeder (she phrased it better) and that it would improve with time and it did.

I would get him checked again by a bfc - you have to be quite persistant in getting help sometimes, does your hospital have a bf coordinator and I would recommend joining LLL and getting someone out to your house.

I hope it all settles down. It might be worth taking him to the osteopath again and there is a chiropractor in my town that does a lot of work with babies with feeding problems only problem there is that you have to pay privately.

Have you also had your DS checked for tongue tie?

DD2 was a bit like Tryharder's, in that she never looked 'milk-drunk', but she did cry hysterically at the breast and only fed for a few minutes. I thought her problem was over-supply rather than under-supply though.

She actually slept reasonably well at that stage, though now she's sussed the feeding, her sleep has gone to pot.

I wouldn't assume that his problem is hunger, or that that is why he is waking so often. Actually, I think the whole business of baby sleeping and feeding is deeply mysterious and incomprehensible and probably not worth trying to make much sense of, as I think babies do generally sort it all out as they get bigger and more competent. That is, as long as he is gaining weight ok.

Nothing really to add but just wanted to lend some support.

my daughter does this as well, she is only 2 weeks old but she feeds for 5 mins then falls asleep but if you move her or try to put her down she wakes up and starts rooting around for more and this can go on for hours...i have been giving her formula top ups because I dont see how I can feed her every 10 minsutes day and night especially with two toddlers to take care of as well. Im probably doing the wrong thing I know!

sophie

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Hi, would second (third) the advice to get the best bf help in real life that you can access. Not all bfcs are equal - I had access to peer supporters locally who had had some training but the best person was the infant feeding specialist who ran the breast feeding drop in at the local hospital. She just knew a lot more and gave more detailed advice.
Re the reflux - I think sometimes it can be related to dairy intolerance and removing dairy from the mum's diet can help - but probably best to get advice from someone who knows lots more than I do!
Also it could be worth checking for thrush - my dd had this and although she always had a tendency to bob on and off the breast this fussiness got much worse when she had thrush.
Good luck - really hope you get advice which helps - and if things don't improve and you you do decide to go to formula full time you'll know that you gave it your best shot.

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Good grief CatDean. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to urge you to listen to an random stranger on an internet forum rather than your doctors. I am and by that utter utter rubbish and potentially damaging advice.

Please phone one of the helplines of the true experts to verify what I am saying though.

You lo can sometimes go as long as 3 hours between feeds but please don't force the issue. Whilst building supply, try to feed every 2 hours during the day.

Your baby is quite possibly hungry and is fussing at the breast because your breasts are not satisfying him, not because they can't but because you have been badly advised to interfere in the relationship between baby and boob and the supply and demand.

If this wasn't enough, the bottle is replacing a breastfeed at the optimum time for driving supply.

From everything you have said so far, thankfully there appears to be no reason why you can't get back on track fairly easily.

Forget the bottle for now, and have a nice weekend babymoon. You and baby pamper weekend should see you alright. No restrictions on feeding, no restrictions on cuddling or falling asleep in your arms/on the breast. Offer both breast with each feed, and then offer no.1 again and continue until there really is no more interest.

Try to relax yourself before every feed because stress can inhibit let down which might frustrate the baby.

The shape of your breasts has nothing to do with your ability to feed, only perhaps the positions that you find most comfortable.

Now I'm not saying your baby doesn't have thrush or reflex, but given your very poor advice I'd say it was that that is more likely to be the problem.

Again, I'd advise you call one or more of the helplines to verify what I am saying.

Please don't give up because of this seemingly easy to fix issue.

Good luck.

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TRy swaddling him really really tightly so he can;'t get his arms out.

My DS2 ws just like this ( minus the reflux)a month ago - he's 16 wks - and what I thought was a feeding problem, was a sleeping problem, or rather a going to sleep problem. He did the whole 'drop off then jerk awake' thing for HOURS.

Swaddle him before you feed him, let him feed for as long as he wants, until he dozes off, then gently put him down. Yuo may find he sleep much much longer that way - my DS did anyway.

Worth a try

Generally small, frequent feeds are advised for reflux, rather than trying to space feeds out.

Also maybe this link might have some helpful info?

www.kellymom.com/bf/concerns/baby/fussy-while-nursing.html

CatDean, 'grazing' is normal for babies, and spacing out feeds and giving formula reduces supply....I agree, concentrating on building up a generous milk supply could well help you, and it's a shame your doctor seems unable to help with good understanding Perhaps you could speak to the doc or HV again and discuss feeding more often, both sides (important to feed from both sides when building up supply)?

Expressing never gives an accurate idea of what gets into the baby - all it does is show you what you produced for the pump on that particular occasion. Babies can take more than the pump, or on occasions less. Irrelevant!

Try breastfeeding counsellors again. NCT counsellors do visit, or get you to visit them, but of course this depends on distance and their own personal availability. There are only 300 NCT bfcs and we don't cover the whole country at all by any means!

With regard to bfc coming to your house, I actually joined the LLL (it's about £20 per year) and went along to the meetings and saw the counsellors face to face. My local LLL groups meets up once a month and then there's always a couple of coffee morning type things where there's a BFC to hand. It's worth joining if you're struggling - at one point I only didnt give up bf because i didnt want to admit to the women at LLL that I wasnt coming anymore because I had stopped!!

LLL groups are great.

But again, few and far between.

It's really not easy for many people to get face to face support and help with bf, simply because of geography