Am a bit upset

[madmouse]

Forgive me, but it is upsetting me that more and more threads on here end in people being upset, hurt, rude, misunderstood.

There is another thread on now where a message has been deleted by mumsnet.

What is happening? How can this be a place where women can safely post about feeding issues while feeling horribly vulnerable/upset/guilty/bad mum if this is what happens?

How about some rules?

1. Assume that the person posting has a reason for the decision she has made
2. Assume that they are not stupid, lazy or ignorant
3. Be careful with what you present as facts
4. Be aware that things come across differently written black and white in a message on a forum than they would do face to face.
5. Be aware that most coins have two sides

Important: If anyone notices me not sticking to any of these rules myself please pull me up on it!

madmouse, I think sweary, personal posts with nasty names in is par for the course on the internet, and mumsnet is actually rather milder than many other forums

There are already rules about posting.

People don't always stick to them, of course...and that's where the moderators step in.

Sorry that you are upset MadMouse.

Sorry, madmouse, I didn't mean to dismiss your feelings...

But are there many threads where people come on for bf/ff advice that do descend like this? IME the ones that turn into a bun fight tend to be the ones that started out as "debate" threads anyway - GMTV on extended bf, guess what my GP said to me this morning, Actress breastfeeds another woman's baby etc
I know there are exceptions, but n general the ones that come on saying "I'm really struggling to breastfeed, thinking about giving formula" (which is what I think you're referring to) get nothing but support and encouragement for whichever choice they make.

i am killing threads left right and centre today!

tiktok you did do no such thing

stealthpolarbear, I think you may have a point there.

maybe i am oversensitive, but I also post on the special needs thread and there very rarely seem to be personal attacks there. I guess i would like this thread to be like that too. Sometimes it is a bit too much like the AIBU thread!

Must say I have just finished 11 months of bf a baby who started life ko in scbu, but I still learn so so much from this thread.

Thanks for posting

xx

err stealth that point was obviously in your first not your last point lol

Mouse - I think part of the problem is that there is so much wrong information being given by health care professionals, combined with the fact that very few women have a family network to rely upon as far as advice about b/fing.

So, when someone comes onto a b/fing thread with a query, they might get challenged about some of their ideas which may be wrong, but it's necessary to point out their deep rooted belief is wrong in order to get resolution (i.e. health visitor says eating cream cakes is good for fat content of milk)

But agree with you in principle. In R/L am fairly sure that the debate would be infinitely more polite!

I think that this just is an emotive subject, and one in which people aren't in the same boat. Here, people are feeding in a variety of ways for a variety of reasons, and to make things more polarised one is nutritionally very much superior, so those who can't supply that, or who know that doing so could seriously pollute their relationship with their baby/mental health and so wouldn't be right for them/their baby, can feel very sensitive. Weaning seems to be really controversial, too - as in, BLW or purees - and there's not a massive difference there, healthwise. On top of that people are just passionate about it, and speaking personally I have had a bf professional contradict every single firmly avowed tenet of every other bfp I saw. (And I saw a LOT.) So I can see how people can tske things personally, at times. It's incredibly sad though, when it's an area where a little tact could probably go further than usual.

Finally, cream cakes must not be blasphemed! They are a medical necessity. Better than Prozac, and not so liable to medicate the baby.

I hope you don't mind me commenting as I haven't been a regular poster very long.

I joined mumsnet in 2005, trained as a bf counsellor and occasionally popped back every few months for a lurk. I was always jaw-droppingly amazed at the tone of bf/ff posts on here. There are other parenting websites that have a similar issue but others that don't. Many threads seemed to be trapped in a permanent state of 'anger' for want of a better word. Formula feeding mums felt very under attack and were defensive as if they were constantly reliving a personal decision not to breastfeed and having to justify themselves. Breastfeeding advocates were unable to fully promote breastfeeding and had to step carefully in a desire to champion breastfeeding (and sometimes weren't so careful). LOTS of anger and quite a lot of repetition.

I totally agree that the support threads tend to stay away from this atmosphere and people do get a lot of genuine help but I do wonder how a new mum reading this board feels about a support thread being surrounded by other threads filled with these 'debates'. You feel like you have to step very very very carefully.

I think the debating tone pushes people to extremes. I don't know anyone in real life who is a 'bf nazi' and thinks ff is 'Satan's work' or anyone who thinks 'ff is fantastic, the best choice for everyone, bollocks to bfers'. There are so many shades of grey.

The 2005 infant feeding survey revealed that 75% of people give up bfing before they wanted to. Of those who give up in the first 2 weeks, 91% wanted to go on longer. There is no doubt that this country's breastfeeding support is failing dismally. I work on a national helpline and daily get calls from mums who have received stunningly awful and inaccurate advice from health professionals. So many people feel confused and alone and message boards take on a significance that perhaps they wouldn't if things were better.

I think that the debatey threads are revealing and interesting and I appreciate a longer list of rules is not conducive to free speech. But I would add one that says something like " what's the most important thing about this board?...If you are a breastfeeding advocate is this currently the best place for certain kinds of lactivism if it means that you will create a thread which may eventually alienate new mums who are in desperate need to support and cause them not to post." And, "if you are an ffer can you accept why bf advocates sometimes do what they do in the face of a crappy and confused system. A comment 'against' ff is not a comment against your personal choice in the face of inadequate support and information. You may be in the 9-25% who is happy with how much you breastfed but clearly not everyone is in that group."

And if I make anyone cross, rather than pick over my individual badly chosen words and flame me - can you at least see where I am coming from?

I wonder if the answer is to have a new separate topic :infant and child feeding - debate and discussion and leave the existing topics for advice and support only. Not sure.

But feeling that heated and upsetting comments are 'safe' just because something is 'debate and discussion' is not the answer. People who are hurting or who are angry take it personally (understandably) and react in a personal way to what would be a general, uncontroversial statement in another context.

For instance, you could easily get a thread purporting to discuss why some women choose to ff. Someone will come on and say 'I ff because I didn't want to worry about what I ate, and I like an occasional glass of wine and I can't do that when bf'. Someone else will point out that these beliefs are erroneous, and perhaps add that it's a shame people's feeding choices are affected by misinformation, and how can we change this? Then there will be responses accusing that poster of upsetting mothers, of spreading misinfo herself (because not everyone accepts they have been misled) and what right have they blahdiblahdiblah......and this is even more likely if the poster correcting the info has been somewhat tactless in her wording, maybe asking why ff mothers don't inform themselves better or get a second opinon yadda yadda yadda.

It gets personal, and it's unavoidable, and we probably have to live with it!

It's only good manners (IMO) not to disparage formula anywhere, in a 'debate' or a 'discussion' too - I mean, we can point out the risks, and the shortcomings, but not throw out names about it (like 'junk' or 'rubbish'). In the same way, bf supporters do not appreciate being called nazis and mafiosi I don;t see why either should be acceptable just because a folder is called 'debate and discussion'.

i am a breastfeeder, but as far as I can see most ff women who come on here know about the benefits of bf, they are not ignorant, however many women outside mn may be. there is often a 'reason why' so i agree tiktok a bit of tact is important.

Agree with Tik that some take it personally. It is a really emotive issue, but would it be better to dance around the misinformation?

Personally, I am of those people who would prefer to have all the information. Some people would like . Both are fine.

And to be honest, have never seen a poster being criticized personally. It has always been that they've been let down by the m/w, h/v or someone who should have known.

No - it is important to have the right information out there, and risk the flak!

I have to work hard not to take some things personally - mainly because I have made myself feel like a failure in the past, because I couldn't breastfeed my boys (none of them put on weight on my milk).

At the time, I did what I felt was best for the boys, though each time I agonised over the decision, and always felt like something of a second-class mum for not breastfeeding - though no-one I knew ever said or did anything to make me feel that way.

I've worked through my feelings of failure, and made my peace with it, to a large extent, but I know what a sensitive issue it is. I have to say that most of what I've read here seems to be supportive and thoughtful, but as tiktok says, disparaging comments about formula can still hurt.

But, information is vital. Perhaps there's something I could have done to boost my supply, but didn't know about at the time. That information can't help me now, and might hurt me, but that's a price I'll pay in order for that information to get to someone who needs it now.

I'll stop rambling now.

I'm not saying that upsetting comments and attacks would be OK on a debate topic and tbh I'm a bit annoyed that it's come across like that. But one person's debate topic could be upsetting for another ("evil" formula companies for example) and I don't see the harm in allowing people to hide that as a topic while still being able to access the advice and support topic. Yes, the right information has to be out there and should be provided if relevant but there may be threads that cover aspects that people don't want to know the detail of and it's their right not to read them. One step further is giving them the option to hide the sorts of things they may find upsetting.