General question on routine

[bzzbee]

Probably a silly question, but one I've been meaning to ask as I am trying to establish some semblance of a routine (daughter is 10 weeks old and b-fed).
Does a 3 hour routine mean 3 hours from the end of one feed to the beginning of the next feed? (as opposed to from the start to the start, ie. feed at 1pm and again at 4pm)
Our feeds can take up to 45mins as there is usually a nappy change midway through...
Also any tips on getting a baby to take a bottle of ebm (she took it fine at 6/7 weeks but unfortunately we allowed a gap to occur and now she rejects it).
Thanks in advance...

a 3 hour routine is counted from the start of a feed to the start of the next and not from the end of the feed. Cant help with the bottle bit,sorry!

Our feeds take 45 mins as well (at least!) still and DS is 16 weeks, but even so, 3 hours from start to start of feed is the normal way of looking at it.

If you're trying to move towards that from where you are, I would attempt it very gradually, adding a few minutes here and there where you can (and by no means leaving your DD to scream, or even grizzle, for a feed) in between feeds.

Re the EBM, when DS briefly refused after taking a bottle, we just persisted very gently for a few days, and only offered the bottle after he'd had a little bit of a BF so he wasn't starving and getting frustrated if he couldn't work the bottle out straight away. Some people recommend trying lots of different teats, others reckon it's better to just gently persevere with one, whatever suits you.

Tomme Tippee teats are often seen as a Good Thing if you BF, as they are closer in shape to a breast so the latch is similar.

Thanks for your replies Seona and Hopefully...

The 3 hour thing has worked fairly well for the first week of really trying it, apart from today where she overslept the afternoon cycle so that the next 3 hour cycle was all messed up. I'm not sure what to do when this happens, do you 'reset' the clock and start the next 3 hours from when she eventually wakes up and feeds? Or do you stick to the plan and have 2 feeds close together. I have the Baby Whisperer Book but it either doesn't address this or else I can't find it (I find the book not the easiest in terms of extracting plain facts and advice as it is chocful of anecdotes and stories!).
We're still trying the bottle for 10-15 minutes every day, but like you suggested, only when she is in a good mood and not actually starving. She seems to have no idea what to do with it though and just rolls the teat around in her mouth . We are using the TT Closer to Nature bottles.

If you have the Baby Whisperer book you'll probably have read about her E.A.S.Y. routine. It allows for sections to vary in times, but at least you know what is coming next. I found it really helpful. The only time constraint I really stuck to in the early days was not keeping them awake for more than two hours.

The TT bottles are good.

The baby whisperer book is possibly the least well written book I have ever come across! You finish reading it with a vague idea that you ought to be doing something, but really not clear about what it might be! If you think her routines would be helpful, you can google baby whisperer, and on the baby whisperer website go to the chat room/message board area - there's loads of FAQs, helpful hints etc.

Incidentally, we feed to a rough routine, and I have no shame about waking DS if he sleeps for a long time during the day (he has one long sleep a day, but even so, I wake him if he hasn't woken after 2 and 1/4 hours). If you prefer to leave her to sleep, I would 'reset' and go three hours from when she wakes and feeds.

Re the bottles, one of the things I found was that I had to aim it to the roof of DS's mouth and push it further than seemed sensible, so he actually latched onto the 'breast' shaped bit of the bottle, rather than the 'nipple' shaped bit, iykwim.

As far as I know, BF shouldn't be done by routine it should always be on demand. Sometimes a baby might only want a quick 'snack' or a drink and not a filling feed, other times a baby might be going through a growth spurt and want to increase the supply so need to feed more often and for longer so tryting to enforce a routine can interfere with the baby's natural instincts. Some babies also like to suck for comfort, where would that fit into a routine? IMO Routined feeding is for formula fed babies, BF should be baby-led.

No advice on EBF sorry, I don't often do it with my DS but he doesn't seem to mind taking it on the occasions that I have given it to him although he's not very good at sucking on a bottle now and I don't get much when I do pump!

Why are you so keen on getting her into a routine with regards to feeding her anyway?

You say your baby's feeds are 45 mins long. I assume the midway nappy change is only about 5 minutes? Is your baby actively feeding during that time ie mouth and jaw going?

Seems quite a long time. I remember distinctly when my dd was 4 months, her feeds were around 5-10 minutes of active feeding. Then she would fall asleep but cry if i unlatched her, so I thought she was still feeding, but actually she really just wanted the boob in her mouth for comfort - light sleeper.

I never got my dd to take a bottle BTW. I did not have that problem with ds. Is it necessary to give a bottle of ebm?

A 3-hr routine is from the BEGINNING of one feed to the beginning of the next, so you should have about 2 1/4 hours off. However, breastfeeding should be done on demand as much as possible. Instead of following someone else's routine, I would follow your own baby's routine. Write down every feed and nap over a 24 hr period, and then do the same the next day. You'll probably find that it's about the same give or take. It's usful to be able to pln around it a bit. However, beware, it will change gradually, especially at growth-spurt time (you're next one will probably be around 3 mths!). So always best to go with the flow!!

bzzbee, I think I was wondering something similar when my lil dd was the same age, and we got onto a good 3-hourly cycle and I breast fed very successfully until 6 months with no supply issues. I also think that the Baby Whisperer is a bit hit and miss. The suggested routines are great, but the methods aren't very clear. I suppose that's because all babies are so different and don't follow instructions! She also recommends writing your baby's own routine and being flexible which was probably the best advice. Good luck.

hey

I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond!

As per one of your posts, I did write down sleep/feed times over a period of 72 hours or so before starting to try applying a structure and it seems her natural cycle is around 3 hours anyway. (This surprised me actually as before I actually recorded times it all seemed so random).
The reason I am trying to apply a slightly more structured approach (and I am not fascist about it, up to now I have demand fed) is that I found I was sometimes confusing tired cries with hungry cries (and vice versa, which is worse i think!). Maybe it's due to my shrunken brain (I blame the sleep deprivation not pregnancy) but when demand-feeding I am useless as remembering when she last fed/slept and in my daughter's case she certainly does need to be 'put' to bed sometimes or she gets overtired and completely overwraught. This happened a couple of times recently and we ended up in a repeated cycle of shouty crying (her, not me!), fitful feeding, falling asleep, waking as soon as being put down... Turns out she was overtired but i missed the 'window' and didn't put her down soon enough. So for me, some loose sort of routine helps me ensure she gets decent feed and sleeps. Any extra demand feeds and growth spurts can still be catered for (as per today, total growth spurt going on I'm afraid) as I will never refuse to feed her. However for the most part one decent feed every 3 hours seems generally to suit her. I should add that another thing that the routine is making me do is to ensure she does get a 'decent' feed every 3 hours, ie I offer her both sides, usually with a wind/nappy change break in the middle, whereas when feeding on demand I didn't do this so much. Which might have been my mistake, granted, I'm kind of figuring this out as I go along as no-one in my family ever breast-fed and most of my close friends who breastfeed/breastfed live overseas. (Another reason I find MN so invaluable!)

Sorry, forgot to mention the bottle issue. I'd really like my daughter to be able to take a bottle so that I leave her with her Dad or another family member once in a while, to allow me to get out for some exercise for example. Even if we do get a 3 hour routine going, I wouldn't like to be too far away just in case she got hungry in between feeds. It makes it very difficult if only I can feed her. I know lots of people are happy to only breastfeed (ie not give ebm) for many months, but for me and my sanity I think it will be important to be able to start doing some things on my own without worrying about a meltdown happening in my absence.

Have to say I disagree with BF babies only being demand fed. DS has been BF on 3 hour feed routine since birth till 4 months when I replaced 10pm feed with formula. I have followed Gina Ford for feeding (don't agree with all her techniques but think you can pick and choose) and it has really suited us. However acknowledge its not for everyone.
He has had a bottle of EBM at 10pm since around 8 weeks so can't really help you there but do persevere, I found this a really big help, when DH took over I often went to bed at 7pm, same time as DS! Take all the help you can get!!
DS has positivley thrived on routine. He was a prem baby and has gone from 9th centlie to now in between 50th and 75th at 6 months.
In terms of growth spurts and supply I expressed quite alot in early days, habit from when DS wouldn't latch properly, and just used expressed BM to top him up until supply increased which was usually very quickly.
Good luck with it all x

and i have to disagree about 45 minutes being a long time for a feed. some babies are more efficient than others, and some women let down their milk more quickly than others.

my 5.5 month old can still take 45 minutes.

Me too - When I started with my son he wanted 9 feeds across 24hrs, each one taking around to 50mins (checked my notes). I'm obviously like milking a mouse (!) as he was a very vociferous feeder...
I had to introduce a bottle early on as nips couldn't cope with 8 hours of sucking and got thrush too, and glad I did as he became very adaptable.

Anyway, a few weeks later he went down to 30 odd minutes and that was fast for us! Think from what I remember at 5 months he still took 25mins. Blueshoes, you're a lucky lady with milky bosoomas methinks!

Bzzbee - completely understand your reasons for wanting a semblance of a routine, and for your DD to take a bottle - I feel just the same.

My DS2 is 11 weeks and sounds v similar to your daughter in that it can bve hard to know if he's hungry or tired, and if we miss the window, he's a nightmare.

I found the biggest help was swaddling him, properly so there's no way he can get his arms out. It meant that if he dozed off in my arms I could put him down without him immediately waking again, and he sleeps longer in the swaddle too. now he's having longer sleeps instead of catnaps, a pattern of sorts is emerging and it's easier to know when he's hungry.

As for the bottle, perseverence is key. Mum is often not the best person to try though, as she's expect a BF from you, so maybe leave her with your DP/H and go upstairs and leave him to it. I wouldn't keep trying new teats either, just keep offering the one you've got and she will get the hang of it in the end.

Good luck

lotster, far from being a milch cow , my dcs' feeding pattern was little and often. So what I gained in short feeds, I got caned in frequency. But I accept not all babies or boobs are the same.

Hey bzzbee my dd is 10 weeks too...
I have to agree with grayson girl, you can get a routine going with bf babies, but it DEFFINATELY depends on the baby...
DS was bf, and routine DID NOT work, followed EASY, but well, it just wasn't him...I fed and fed and fed on demand, things finally settled down at about 5 months i think, It was all a bit of a blur.
DD however sounds alot like yours, 3-5 hours works well for her, and I find that taking the time to work out whats going on, which a 3 hour routine(ish) has allowed, has given me a better understanding of her, and made life alot easier...seems to me that your plan is a good one...GOOD LUCK.
As for the bottle thing...DS refused that too...I'd agree in letting dad have a go if he's patient enough...also try a little boiled water...sometimes it's easier when baby views it as something different to the breast...I also found that with ds it helped to VERY GENTLY press the wide part of the bottle teat...this causes a little milk/water to squirt out into his mouth and gave him indication of what he was trying to do...do that with a slow flow teat though...you don't want to choke her...for the record DS never took more than water from the bottle, he point blank refused milk...but those are the things I was advised to try...good luck

Hi Bzzbee: If your baby is already going more or less 3 hours between feeds, then it should be easy to put him on a routine. Just try not to be too rigid about it (i.e. always feed him if he's definitely hungry) & it should be fine. I agree that some babies positively thrive on a routine. My baby (5.5. months now) was going MORE than 3 hours between feeds (and feeding more at night) & when we gently encouraged a 3 hourly routine (we started a month ago, actually quite late in routine terms) his sleeping & feeding just became so much better, he fussed less at the breast & all sorts of other good things happened. So I certainly disagree that (after the initial phase) demand feeding is always the answer. For some babies routine works fine, as long as it's not completely rigid, but that's just common sense isn't it!

I agree that, like Chandellina says, 45 minutes is perfectly normal for a breastfeed, some babies take that long, others take 5 minutes (like my DS) and then you always are wondering if they've taken enough I would count from the start of one feed to the start of another.

I also agree about giving EBM in a bottle, you need to be gently persistent. We had the same problem. We started out giving a bottle of EBM once in a while around 6-8 weeks, then left a gap of about a month where I just breastfed, & then DS didn't want to take the bottle anymore! We persisted for a few days, gave it to him once a day even if it meant just playing with it in his mouth, & eventually he took it again. So it's a matter of not giving up.