demand feeding....when can you establish a routine (of sorts)?

[reluctantincubator]

I am bf-ing my 3 week old LO, and happy (for now) to continue with "baby lead" feeding, although I am trying to encourage three hourly (ish) breaks between feeds; If she starts grizzling but can be distracted easily and happily for a short while then I do that, but if she cant be put off then I just feed her.

But at some point surely it makes sense to try and establish a slightly less random routine so that she (when she is able to go longer between feeds) csn get a sense of day/night, meals etc? but when should this be? i.e i presume she will leanr quite quickly that if she yells loudly enough, she will get boob, so how do I stop getting into a situation where she snavks when she feels like it, as opposed to taking a good feed at slightly longer intervals?

Hey RI

If I had the answer........

tbh, at this age it's too early to establish a routine imo, and ime of DS1 and DD and feeding on demand is necessary for a happy baby and also to ensure that you have a well established supply in the early weeks. They had both started to sort themselves out into a routine by around 6-8 weeks.

DS2 on the other hand......although he has a routine of sorts and feeds at 7ish, 11ish, 3ish, 7ish, 11ish through the day; it then all goes tits up (no pun intended, ha!) and he is either awake and feeding, or awake and grizzling most of the night and will settle at 4-5ish for a few hours before starting it all over again.

Tbh, distracting your baby rather than feeding them at this stage may affect your milk supply. 3 hrs is a very long time between feeds for a baby so young. Most newborns need feeding every couple of hours round the clock, and 3 weeks is still newborn. Lots of babies do have one or two periods per 24hrs when they have a bigger break between feeds so you can get some sleep, but not necessarily at night initially. On the other hand, it's also normal for them to have times of day when they want to feed very often for a period of several hours (cluster feeding).

There's a reason why in most cultures mum and baby spend the first 6 weeks or so in bed together with mum being waited on by others and expected to do nothing except feed the baby .

You can encourage the difference between day and night by keeping nighttime feeds low-key and quiet. Other than that it's really a bit early to think about any kind of pattern or routine.

No, just demand feed. Don't distract her when she grizzles, just feed her. A pattern will emerge in the next 3 weeks or so, but in the mean time brace yourself for a growth spurt around now, and again at 6 weeks (then at 12 weeks and 18-20 weeks) where she will seem hungry and fussy all the time and you may doubt that you have enough milk.

Don't worry, just go with the flow and her feeding pattern will settle down in the next few weeks. As long as you feed her when she asks to be fed you will have enough milk. Feeding cues are making faces, mouthing, arm and leg waving/wriggling, grunting and eventually crying. Crying is the last feeding cue, don't wait until she's crying, feed her when she starts fussing and youy'll both be much happier.

Don't fret about getting your life back or establishing any kind of routine or control over what she does etc. Just spend the next month sitting on your sofa with your new baby on your chest or in your arms, spend hours staring at her and marvelling at how clever you have been in making this amazing creature. Buy a good sling and then carry her around whilst you do your housework etc and stop looking at the clock or thinking "she only fed XX minutes ago" it's not important. She'll still be nursing for comfort and to stimulate your supply, so just go with the flow and enjoy!!

would second all that the others have said. Bear in mind that her tummy is not much bigger than a ping pong ball at this stage, so what seems like a "snack" to you is a drink or a full meal to her. Concepts like 'bad habits' and 'snacking' and 'acceptable' gaps between feeds is completely alien to her - she is led only by her needs for food, warmth and comfort. Yes, this is a huge adjustment for you to make and very few mums find it easy.

(BTW, if you have been reading anything by Clare Byam-Cook, including the bf sections of Gina Ford, be aware that her views on demand feeding are contrary to those of (among others) the Royal College of Midwives, NCT and La Leche League. If it works for you, fine, if not feel free to bin it)

my DS is five months and I'm lucky if he goes three hours between feeds, night or day.

sorry, I have no advice for you!

I was like you and no pattern emerged for me!!

So, at 9 weeks I read the baby whisperer and quite liked her feeding tips. She said to feed at 7.10.1.4.and 7, which I did. This worked really well for us. There were times when I did an extra feed (growth spurts, hot, to shut her up in a restaurant etc) but not that often!!

However, she also reccomended a dream feed which didn't work and I couldn't get away with her nap times. She also said to go to a4 hour routine at 4 months which I didn't and kept to the 3 hour one until solids were well established by about 6.5 months. So don't take any books literally

I know feeding on demand is the best thing but I really needed a routine and it is what has kept me breasfeeding (8 months now).

Interesting view of babywhisperer's advice and potential impact on breastfeeding here.

They usually settle themselves into their own routine when they are ready.

I mainly agree with what has been said here (I would never have NOT fed either of my girls if they were crying or demanding it), but none the less I'd say that I started easing both my exclusively bf DDs into a routine around 4 or 5 weeks. By then they were going 3 hrs / 3.5 hrs between feeds during the day and longer at night. What I looked at first was their napping patterns and tried to get something fairly regular established based around idea that they should be asleep again approx 2 hrs after waking at this age.

By around 5 / 6 weeks I'd got both into a pretty similar pattern of feed 7am ish back in moses basket / pram / sling around 9am ish. Up 10ish (i'd wake after about an hour if they were still sleeping) and feed, back into moses basket 12ish generally slightly longer sleep so then up and feed by 2pm ish (I'd wake after 2 hrs if still sleeping as they often were at this time of day). Sleep again 4pm ish for about 45 mins then feed 5pm ish, bath and feed again 7pm ish then bed. Bizarrely it almost seemed that their regular napping started to dictate their feed times rather than the other way around. I get that it doesn't work for everyone, but I found it worked v successfully for me so you never know.

I was extremely lucky in that both mine slept through the night v early (7am - 7pm by 8 and 9 weeks respectively) and I wonder whether the structured napping helped. Or maybe it was just a fluke......

Just demand feed, I'm afraid. I tried routines and it was just too stressful!!

Try writing down when feeds/sleeps happen every day and you'll probably find there are a few days in a row when there is a routine, but it often changes just when you think you've got it sussed! Esp around 3 weeks, 6 weeks and 3 mths, classic growth spurt times, and you HAVE to keep feeding on demand or your milk supply will not keep up with your baby!

When you start weaning, you get into a routine more because of having structured mealtimes, ie breakfast, lunch and tea, but until then, go with the flow!!

hi ladies thanks v much for the info and advice. I'm not doing GF or anything like that - and not even really trying to get her into a routine yet as she is only a toty wee thing! I was kind of idly wondering when (perhaps) a shift into a slightly more structured shcedule might be right/appropriate/possible/desirable**delete as applicable

I have been reading this thread (below) with interest
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/parenting/673139-so-when-did-your-LO-start-sleeping-through-the-night?pg=2

and as much as though I am genuinely not stirring (!) it does seem that so much comes down to the demand vs routine debate. Personally I am happy to demand feed now and for the next few months (6-9?) but
a), I don't think the full on demand feeding and co-sleeping approach will work for me beyond that and into toddler-dom. and
b) I would definitely like to try and encourage a longer sleep at night when she is ready and able (i.e clearly not yet, but maybe by 4-6 months if that works for us/her - I appreciate that the success or not of "Sleep training" (for want of a better phrase), will be an unknown quantity with her until we try it.

So (at risk of sounding emotive) how long can I continue to demand feed and c0-seep without "making a rod for my own back" (again, for want of a better phrase)?. I do believe its the best start for a baby, but I cant continue it indefinitely (will have to return to work at some point) so when do you make the break without having trained your LO that it gets booby whenever it cries and can only sleep in your bed?

Pls dont get me wrong, I would love to do the whole earth mama thing if I could, but I don't think it will work for us as a family after my maternity leave runs out, and I cant afford not to go back to work!

sorry if this is all a bit garbled. Last night missy wouldnt settle at all so I am a little sleep deprived at the mo!

I wouldn;t worry about making a rod for your back. Our DS co-slept and breastfed into toddler hood and it hasn't made things difficult for us. If anything, I think it has been easier because we just went with the flow and allowed him to do things in his own time without forcing them. I think I probably would have been more stressed if I had tried to enforce 'my' ways on him - he's a very independent child! They just grow into/out of different phases and it all happens very quickly - too quickly if you ask me! Congratulations on your new little one and enjoy these early weeks - they disappear so fast! xo

I've been reading this thread with real interest as I've just started trying to introduce a 2.5/3hr routine to my 8 week old. It seems as if most people are against a routine?

For the first 5 weeks or so I was feeding like mad - all the time it seemed at the start. As he's gotten a little older (over the last 2 weeks) he seems to have calmed down on the feeding a little, going longer between and being better at feeding when he does. Also, I discovered that I was just ramming a boob in his mouth whenever he had cause for complaint about anything - I didn't realise he was just bored or tired or wanted holding.

So I've been using the disctraction technique too. If it doesn't work, then I'll feed him. If he's distracted, I figure he wasn't that hungry to start with. Often I find he gets a bit hufty, I start cuddling, singing, rocking him and then he nods off to sleep, waking up in time for his next feed. I can't imagine that moving to 3 hour pattern would affect your milk supply too much, as my instinct says that if he goes a bit longer, he'll feed better when he gets to the boob and take in more (obviously this only works when the baby is old enough for its belly to last 3 hours between feeds and take in enough in its belly to get through to the next one). Hope I'm not misguided on this one.

As I said, I've only just been doing this for 2 days, and it is a fairly natural progression from what he was floating towards anyway. Anything could happen in the next few days/weeks to turn this on its head, and I'll feel like an idiot for writing all this, but thought I'd throw it in here. It's a fairly flexible routine (I'm not organised enough to be rigid) but I really felt the need to have some order in the day and I feel a lot better for it right now

I wouldn't say I'm against a routine as such - Just against parent enforced ones rather than baby-led ones. Babies do find their own feeding routines but at different development stages they will feed more to stimulate the milk supply so it changes to suit their growing needs. The worry is, that if you are distracting your baby to regulate their feeding you will miss these cues for changes and this will impact on your milk supply. In my opinion, it is always best to offer milk if you suspect they are hungry - you can't force-feed a breastfed baby, so if they aren't hungry they won't take it and you can move on to something else.

The advantage of demand feeding and allowing them to "snack" as we see it is that they can self regulate their appetite which is why the research shows that BF babies are less prone to obesity.

I guess I figure that if he's hungry, there's no way that he will be distracted. I've never let him cry for more than 2 seconds for food. I guess I've not been great at reading his cues in the past - whether he's hungry or just bored etc. In my experience he's never rejected the breast and will always pop on for a minute or two. But every baby's different and I'm still trying to work this wee one out. I know that the minute I think I have done, he'll change and I'll have to start from the beginning again...

I'm all for a routine of sorts.

DS2 is 10 wks, and I demand fed without any sort of structure until about a week ago. I've had no problems breast feeding and my supply is fine, but DS was often grizzly, sick a lot (posseting, not whole feeds) and really hard to settle. He was generally going about 2 hours between feeds in the day time and up to 4 at night if I was lucky. His weight gain is excellent so no worries there

After a couple of particulary crap days where he was crying for hours and seemed really uncomfortable, DH and I decided to try a different approach.

I felt that he could go 3 hours between feeds with a bit of encouragement. I thought this may help with the sickness, as he was feeding so frequently, he almost seemed to take too much then puke it all up, which was upsetting for him. So for the first day or two, when he seemed hungry after about 2 hours, I stuck him in the buggy or in the car to distract him. Magically, he always fell asleep, waking to feed after about a 3 hour gap.

I realized that I was misreading his cues. He likes to suckle himself to sleep, so when he got tired he makes feeding signs, like rooting, chewing hands etc. I assumed he was hungry, so offered him the boob. He would take a bit anyway, then doze off, then wake 10 mins later and throw up everywhere. He'd then be unsettled and whingy cos he was overtired.

Now, I feed him when he wakes, he takes a decent feed from both boobs - he was only feeding for 10 mins off one side before - and then he's awake for a bit. As soon as he starts to moan, usually 1-1/2 hours after waking, I swaddle him and give him a dummy, nad he's usually asleep in moments.

I cannot tell you what an improvement this is, and it's come about through trying a 'routine'. The swaddling has helped hugely - when he's overtired he thrashes about wildly and I thought he had tummy ache or wind, so I spend hours pacing and patting his back, when all he wanted was to be held still so he should go to sleep.

But having some structure to the day has been the biggest help, as I can predict more accurately what he wants.

Sorry for the essay - it's all very raw for me and it's cathartic to write it down! I'd say if she seems happy and content, then if it ain't broke, don't fix it and go with the flow. But if she's hard to settle, or miseralbe, it may be worth a try.

jojay - thats really interesting as the behaviour and pattern you describe is very similar to my LOs although she is younger (4 and a half weeks). The diversity of answers and experiences makes for very interesting mulling over

kraftwerk - I dont think most people are against any form of routine at all, just the age at which you intoroduce one and crucially, whether it is baby-based as opposed to parent based - but that is definitely a debate for another thread.

Hi RI - how's it going?

This is really interesting as I admit I've been struggling with DS' continual demands for food. I feel quite ashamed now. He's only 8 days old but was 10lbs 4oz at birth and only lost 5oz so was very hungry and the continual feeding was sending me deranged. I realise I too was making the 'boob ramming' mistake and he wasn't always hungry - I think that came from the mw's in the hospital telling me to bung him on the boob all the time to stimulate my supply.

I now try to make him go an hour from the end of one feed to the start of another, and he feeds much better for it, often going for both sides and feeding more actively. I don't remember this constant feeding with DD so it's been a bit of a shock. We'll stick with a minimum of an hour between feeds for now and see if DS moves himself onto a longer interval. It'll be easier when we can get out of the house (I had a section so can't drive or walk far) and other distractions present themselves. I couldn't let him go hungry, but I'm quite happy to try distracting him for a short while, esp as he does sometimes fall asleep instead or happily go to someone else, so can't have been ravenous!

Both of mine wnet into NICU for a brief period, so I was expressing, every three hours, night / day.

When they came out of NICU, neither would take the nipple to start with, so I coninued to express every three hours and give them a bottle. They did gradually transfer to the nipple. However, neither would EVER take bottle or breast within the three hour period. Midwives, friends, my mother, would all gasp in amazement as I tried to sneak in a quick feed earlier than that (because we wanted to go out, or it would be dinner-time at feed-time otherwise, whatever), and the baby refused to co-operate. Concomitantly, neither sprog would ever have a 'snack' suck once on the breast,or left any of their bottle. They wanted all or nothing, and they didn't want it until three hours were up.

Make of it what you will, but i have often thought that, if i had another child, I would start off breast-feeding in the same way ...

I b/f ds for 14m and dd for 21m by the way. So there didn't seem to be a supply issue though both were lean babies and continue to be skinny children.

Hi reluctant, your baby will find a routine. For both my dcs, the routine centred around their nap times, not their feed times.

As your baby gets older, a pattern starts to emerge around their naptimes, say from 3 months. This will act as the template for my day.

When I am at home, I feed them as and when they want, which could be as often as every 30-45 mins. You are probably horrified but around a few months' old, they really only spend 5-10 minutes on the breast. So easy to just lift your top, check your emails and then it is done.

When we are out and about, my dcs would feed less because they are more distracted by what is going on. So can go for 2-3 hours without feeding.

Once your baby is established onto solids (say around 6-9 months), the mealtimes also act as another marker for their routine. Their need to be on the breast for nutrition also diminishes and you have more options to distract them with food and drink, if you don't want to or it is not convenient to put them on the breast.

When I tried to lengthen out feeds and make them take more at one feed (difficult because they fell asleep), it was far more stressful for me than just relaxing into the demand feeding, around the more structured naptimes and mealtimes.

Insanity, I totally respect your experience with 3-hourly feeds.

Just wanted to say different babies are different (obviously). My dd also started life in NICU/SCBU with 3-4 hourly feeds, but she is and will probably always be a snacker.

My 8 week DS is pretty similar to blueshoes' experience- it's all demmand feeding ('demmand fed, demmanding ever since' according to FIL )and recently I've gone with what another poster on here said and stopped looking at the clock- it was stressing me out! You just have to find what's right for you... and then it all seems to change anyway!! x

Well, Blueshoes, I can't say their sleep habits were up to much