BF baby 'holding onto wind'?

[jumpjockey]

DD is 19 days old and usually feeds until she falls asleep, which is great. Then about an hour and a half later she'll wake up with awful wind that takes ages to get up again - in the middle of the night especially it can take half an hour to get a good burp out of her, with lots of inconsolable crying and then very hard to settle back to sleep.

Is it to do with my feeding position? My nippes are quite high up so instead of resting facing upwards with the boob in her mouth she's got to sort of be held 'up and over' which is very tiring for us both. We're loathe to wind her straight after feeding as that wakes her up again and then she won't sleep for ages.

Any ideas as to how we can help her? DH is much better at winding her than me but I can't keep passing her across to him whenever it's a problem as he'll be back at work soon

DS had dreadful wind on-and-off for about the first 10 weeks. Then it magically disappeared.

I used to try to burp him between sides so he'd go back to sleep during the second side.

We tried infacol, which was pretty easy to get in but never seemed to do anything. What did help us was gripe water. Its a lot more by volume than some of the other wind remedies but it did bring up the most spectacular burps (and sometimes milk bubbles, which I always found hilarious). It was best delivered by syringe.

DS, at 11mo is currently going through a windy phase, and we're back on gripe water - normally only before bed. Nowadays most of the time he puts the syringe in his mouth instead, and waits for us to push the stuff in, before taking it out, swallowing, and putting it back in for more. And I'm pretty convinced he points to his gripe water when he's a bit windy

I find that both my DSes brought/brings up wind easier if fed in an uprightish position. Also you may start to notice that she kind of pauses or slows down when the wind starts to rise mid-feed - DS1 used to do this and if you took him off mid-boob at the right point then he'd burp like an angel, and if you missed the cue he'd swallow the wind and never burp at all, just writhe and fart.

DS2 is only 3 weeks and hasn't quite got to that point yet - or I'm not reading the cues right - but worth keeping an eye out with your DD.

am feeding her at the mo, just heard a rumble noise so took her off and she's had a good burp - though more like trooper than an angel tyv! Will see what difference this makes later on, certainly better to get as much out as possible now - thanks very much for the suggestion.

he he - yes a burping angel was perhaps a bit of an odd metaphor! Seasonal though

Just wondering what it is about her behaviour that makes you think she has trapped wind?

If she's waking after an hour and a half then it's quite likely she's digested what she ate and is ready for more milk.

The thing is, crying inconsolably can often actually cause babies to burp, as they swallow air while doing this. So it could be that there's no wind, but the crying eventually leads to a burp.

It's normal for newborns to pull funny faces, fart all the time, have explosive poos and wriggle around with their knees pulled up to their chest. None of this signifies trapped wind.

I wonder if it might be worth just feeding her straight away, rather than trying to calm her another way?

grendle - she arches her back and has a blueish tinge around her mouth which the mw said were signs of wind - plus the fact that she very rarely burps just after a feed.

Then again arching her back is also meant to be a sign of being over-tired so trying to burp her at that point is a bad idea...

I guess I'm worried about feeding her on top of a load of trapped wind if it means she can't get a full enough tummy. I generally try to feed her fairly soon after waking up but she often won't latch on, just bats her hands around my nipple (ouch!). Will keep doing TYV's trick of burping her halfway and then also try the feeding her quickly. She seems ok this morning (thankyou God) and has just had a feed so fingers crossed it keeps working.

Aaaaaargh....not the blueish tinge round the mouth myth!! Why do midwives persist in saying this? How can air in the stomach travel to the skin around the mouth and change its colour??!! It is utter rubbish, and sorry for sounding cross, but really.....

I agree that your baby just wants to be fed again - all the unsettledness and squirming and so on is saying 'please feed me and hold me'.

Messing about jiggling, patting and so on only serves to upset her and yes, she may eventually burp but that does not mean she was 'holding' her wind or that it was 'trapped'.

It's ok to just feed her - if she is difficult to latch on then she may need calming down first. Yes, feed her as soon as she starts to twitch a bit before she gets into a paddy.

You might find this helpful:

www.kellymom.com/bf/start/basics/hunger-cues.html

Rarely burping is very common in a breastfed baby. If the baby is well attached then there's no opportunity to swallow air, therefore no burp . As I said, in breastfed babies it's often crying that leads to burps...

Oh, and if she's thrashing around lots, it might be worth thinking about how you are holding her. Young babies like to be held tightly, otherwise they feel a little bit insecure, as if they might fall.

Do you hold her with the opposite arm to the breast you are feeding from? This can be a good way to hold babies firmly, with their spine resting along your arm and bottom tucked firmly into your side with you elbow. Your hands would be round her shoulders, not her neck or head. Babies need their heads to be free to tilt back as they come onto the breast. Placing a finger or hand behind their head can make them arch their backs, as there is a reflex that causes them to push back when there is something against their head. If you feel her head needs more support, then splitting your first two fingers like scissors and placing them either side of her lower ear can be really supportive.

It may also help to check that she's starting far enough away from your nipple. So when she's lying in a straight line with tummy knees and nose all facing your body, your nipple needs to be level with somewhere between her nose and forehead (her head may be even inyour cleavage to start with). This means that when she tilts her head back as she opens wide, your nipple will still be in just the right place that her top lip just glides over it with a big mouthful of breast underneath. Some mums say that it looks as if their nipple may go up baby's nose .

Also, if her hands are in the way, then gently placing her lower arm down by her side before you start might be helpful. some mums even wrap their baby in a muslin to keep them out of the way.

www.drjacknewman.com has some good videos illustrating this position

Woops! Well that's me thoroughly told I must admit it didn't make a huge amount of sense but being a beginner I thought "must be true"...!

Thanks very much for the advice - she is still pretty tiny so I guess gets hungry pretty quickly.

Grendle, I've been trying various positions, she often thrashes her head around and can be quite hard to attach but we've found if she's swaddled it's a lot easier. I'm not sure her head goes far enough back - she's feeding at the mo and the hardest bit is getting her high enough that she's right over the nipple - I have to lift her whole body up and over which is very hard work on the supporting arm. She often ends up with her head tipped partly to the side.

In the night she's in bed next to me and attaches herself pretty much on her own while we're lying down, sometimes she seems to get it right and other times she attaches partly then kind of sucks herself closer - is this very bad?!

Aw, don't take it to heart, most of us don't know these things until we're told.

Might it help to shove a cushion or rolled up towel under the arm bearing your baby's weight to stop it aching?

Not quite sure I know what you mean about up and over the nipple, though... can you say more?

Nighttimes are the most difficult for getting the positioning right cos it's dark and everyone's tired. Some babies self-attach really well. This is interesting:

www.biologicalnurturing.com/Pages/howtodoit.html

i just watched some of those films, she seems to do 3 or 4 small movements with the chin then the swallowing movement - does that mean she's not propely attached, or just doing the 'nibbling' movement? Thanks very much for all your help, it's really appreciated

sorry x posted. My boobs are a weird shape in that the nipple is closer to the top rather than pointing downwards like in those films, imagine a flat 45 degree slope with the nipple at the end then most of the rounded part of the breast is below - so to get her attached with her mouth over the nipple, instead of her body held facing slightly upwards, it's got to be at right angles to the floor or facing slightly downwards. does that make sense?

jumpjockey - I wasn't getting at you with the 'how can blue tinge equal wind?' thing, but at your midwife! It's her job to ensure the info she gives you is correct and evidence based and no one can blame you for not knowing this! It's a really common fairy tale and midwives should know better than to promote it

Ah, I think I see what you mean and I'm sure I have seen a breast that looks like yours before. Every mum and baby pair has their own unique anatomy and some find they need to be a bit more creative with positions than others.

OK, firstly if she's doing 3-4 movements followed by a swallow (pause in the chin) then she's getting milk -that's what the swallow indicated. With nibbling you hardly see any swallowing. Some of the videos show babies at the start of a feed with mums with v full breasts. In these situations, such as perhaps first thing in the morning, babies often gulp the milk down with only one or maybe two suckles per swallow at the start of a feed. However, as a feed goes on, the milk becomes harder to extract, so more suckles per swallow. This is also the case when a baby has only gone a short time since they last fed on the same breast. It indicates they are taking the fattier milk which is harder to extract, hence more suckles per swallow. It's possible it could indicate room for improvement in the latch too, but there would be other signs as well, such as, for example, visibly pursed lips, discomfort for you, chin not deep into the breast, baby fussing etc etc. Does that help you make sense of it?

With the positioning, it may be that the position I descibed might not be the easiest for you to sustain, as perhaps you are having to support her body higher than is comfy for your shoulder and elbow? Though perhaps if you play around with cushions under your arm it might be ok?

I can see that she would need to face slightly downwards from that position if your nipple is at an upwards angle and it's great that you recognise this yourself . If the nipple is the centre of a clock face, then a baby can actually attach from any numerical position (at least in theory). The key is to apply the same principles, so

• nose, knees and naval all in straight line facing towards mum (and in the correct plane for the angle of your nipple)
• baby held close to you
• big wide mouth *top lip gliding over the nipple *coming on chin first by moving baby's whole body not pushing their head
• position comfortable and sustainable for both mum and baby

Have you had any face-to face support from a bf counsellor? Are there any support groups near you?

Grendle - Glad to hear the slow suckling thing is ok. She's just done what I assume is a massive cluster feed - had both sides, fell off asleep each time then woke up and wanted some more pretty much straight away. Thanks for the info re positioning, I've found when I add an extra cushion under her it definitely helps get her high enough up to save my arm. Then again maybe it's a great post-baby upper body workout

There's a bf support session just near us that we went to last week, and our doula was great as well - I may just be being over-worried what with this being a first baby and all. Lady at the bf session said things look fine and she has put on weight rather than losing compared to her birth weight so between us we must be getting something right!

tiktok - no offence taken, I just wonder why then so many people keep telling the same story if it's wrong?

Thanks very much both, it's great to have such detailed help.

You're welcome, of course .

Another thought occurred too... have you tried feeding lying down? You may find that with your nipple where it is then this might work well. Delending on the size of your breast you might need a small rolled up muslin between breast and mattress to stop baby chomping the sheets. Lots of people also find they need to start with baby further down their body (head well below breast). It's worth a try, as it's a handy position especially at night .

The world is full of crap bf myths, sighs.

jumpjockey, the 'blue tinge = wind' is often said, but like a lot of myths about breastfeeding it is based on nothing at all. The reason why this and other myths keep getting peddelled by people who ought to know better is that bf training of midwives and others is very poor.

If you continue to read the threads in this folder you will see myth after myth after myth