I don't want to stop BF, but it is making us both miserable

[hopefully]

DS is 9 weeks old, and during the day is an easy, happy chap who feeds, plays and sleeps well (he feeds roughly 3 hourly).

However, come the evening (from his 6pm feed onwards) he just cannot settle after a feed. this results in him grizzling or all out screamimg from about 7-9pn. he then settles (sometimes) until his 10:30pm feed, then won't settle till at least 1am. He then wakes at 4am-ish for another feed, after which he is up for at least another 90 mins.

He and i are obviously totally overtired, and i was sobbing on a nightly basis. So about 5 days ago dp started giving him a bottle of ebm and formula (i can only express an oz or two at a time, so expressing a full feed is difficult) for the 10:30pm feed. He fed quickly and settled in about 10 minutes, sleeping well till the usual 4am, when he then wouldn't settle again for 2 hours.
So the last 2 nights I BF'd at 10:30 (had been pumping for this feed to keep up supply), he screamed till 1am, then dp gaven him the formula feed at 4am, after which he settled quickly and easily and slept well.

So, he is easier to settle on a bottle, and sleep better. However, he won't take a bottle top up after a bf (gets very distressed, flinging his head away).

I am seriously considering giving him ebm and formula at both the 10:30 and 4am feeds, although I know this will probably spell the beginning of the end of BF. I am prepared to pump lots to make up for it, but as I only ever get 1-2oz, I'm unlikely to be able to get enough to even give him one full ebm feed (he takes a good 5oz from a bottle, sometimes 5.5).

DP is v good, but only human and cannot take him for hours after every feed from 6:30pm to 6:30am.

He is gaining well, although he's slipped from the 98th centile at birth to the 50th, and is now somewhere between the 50th and 75th.

I don't know what advice I'm hoping for, just depressed about it all as I really want to keep BF but I cannot cope with this sleep deprivation. If anyone's got any tales of doing something similar with the expressing, or for settling him, or an explanation, I'd be interested!

I found that i couldnt express much at a time either but i found if i had the pump ready when i fed if i expressed out of one breast while feeding with the other i got a LOT more milk.

This is because suckling helps you produce milk. i also used to pump a bit from both breasts once DS had stopped feeding.

Are you using a hand or electric pump? i know alot of people manage to get more using an electric pump but personally i prefered a hand pump.

When does he actually go to bed? We had a lot of hideous bonkers evenings until we started putting DS to bed after a 5.30 bath (even though it seemed ridiculously early), so actually settling down to sleep between 6.15 and 6.45. Have you got a bedtime routine? I know it may seem irrelevant if you think it's about the milk, but it might help.

Tinerclanger We do have a bed time routine - he has a bath at around 5:45 pm, then a feed and theoretically bed by 7pm, although that hasn't happened for about 8 days.

He used to settle well at 7pm and at 4am, although the 10:30pm feed has always been a little difficult.

Mum2OliverJames I will try expressing while I feed and see if I get more, thanks for the idea. I use an electric pump, but will borrow SIL's manual and see if there's a difference.

Ok, sorry for irrelevant comment!
Interesting that he used to settle ok though. When did it stop?

You are doing well and you'll get through this!
Are you able to sleep during the day together with ds at all?

I know that's not always possible but the other things I do are

• drink coffee (this made a huge difference to me!)
• co-sleep (I didn't intend to originally, but I found that it meant I didn't have to settle after a night feed when bfing)
• bf dd to sleep lying down on the bed
• I fed dd quite frequently during the day at that age, closer to every 1.5 hours (and what seemed like constantly in the evening), to get more calories in at that time and discourage it at night.

I hope it works for you. Good luck.

The 4am problem started around 10 days ago (even when he had more night feeds he always used to settle relatively quickly, certainly within 30-45 mins), and the 7pm was good from about 5.5 weeks, then disintegrated at about 7.5 weeks.

I do rest a bit during the day, but to be honest I just can't catch up with enough to make up for not sleeping at all at night!
Co-sleeping is a bit of a non-starter - I don't like it but I tried having him in the bed so i could feed him before he fully woke and it and it took just as long to settle him, with the added benefit that whoever wasn't settling him was kept up as well.
The number of night feeds isn't a problem - he only feeds at 10:30pm and 4am, and I don't think getting more calories into him would actually improve that (he takes a massive feed both times, and again at 7:30am, so I don't think he's ready to drop the night feed? I may be wrong).

i found i had to cut out all caffeine as that was not helping dd sleep. might sound stupid but it sounds a bit colicky, is baby's latch ok? might be taking in more air than you realise...have you tried infacol? although it may seem like bottle is helping your baby settle, it could be that there is such a large volume of formula compared to breast milk it makes ds extra drowsy IYSWIM, overriding whatever is keeping him awake when you bf him.. . . i do sympathise with you, it's very difficult. i mix fed dd for weeks for the same reason, it worked well until she started refusing a bottle, even now at 6 months she won't drink from anything other than me. (so you can return to excl bf after mix feeding if you really wanted to). good luck xx

it is much easier for them to drink from a bottle and the formula is heavier on their tummies and takes them longer to digest - hence the longer sleep. So it isn't surprising that he appears calmer when bottle fed.

I think evening cluster feeding scenario is typical of that age - I remember feeding on and off for most of the evening at that stage.

I think maybe your biggest problem is getting him to settle after the night feeds. My DS1 was like this - could take up to an hour. What worked for me was to put him on his tummy and rub his back until he fell asleep and then turn him back over on to his back.

Another alternative would be for you to work a shift system - you to go to bed early (say 8-9pm) and leave dh to do the 10.30 feed - which ebm and formula - you get a good 4-5 hours sleep and then feed him yourself in the early morning - and then catch up on sleep when the baby sleeps during the day. That way you still do the middle of the night feed which is so important in stimulating milk supply. (I did this with my twins and it really worked for us). At least this way you are not totally sleep deprived.

and try and hold on to the fact that this won't go on for long (although a few weeks sounds like a lifetime when you are in the middle of it). If you can get through the next few weeks it will get easier.

hopefully I am sorry you're having such a rotten time, and I can sympathise so much having been through this. It makes you so resentful towards them, doesn't it?

Firstly it's so important to realise that this is normal behaviour. Babies cluster feed at this age in order to increase your milk supply. Try Kellymom for great advice.

If you are determined to preserve your breastfeeding then the best approach is to feed right through. It's hard and tiring and crap but it does pass and the good news is that at 9 weeks you're probably not too far from the other side of it. In the meantime sleep during the day when he does, and forget about night and day - just work on the basis that there are 24 hours in a day and try to clock up enough sleep for yourself whenever you can.

Try to put out of your head any notion that he should feed then sleep - evenings are often just hours of feeding on and off. If he'll settle at all try sitting downstairs with the lights low and the TV on (subtitles can be a godsend!) and just feeding him as and when he wants.

A sling is a godsend for difficult evenings - we would take turns to wear DS on our chests and rosk in front of the cooker hood to calm him down! Also, forgetting about any notion that by 9 weeks things should be "under control" or "in a routine" helps a lot - 9 weeks is very very early still, although it won't feel like it. It's OK to be living a totally haywire life for now.

I honestly know how totally overwhelmingly awful nights like those are but he's doing what you'd expect a baby to do at this age (just nobody talks about it or warns you!) and he's actually sleeping quite well to be going from half ten to 4! It will pass off, just persevere if you can, sleep whe you can and eat lots of chocolate.

rosk?! rosk!

It is so difficult to deal with everything when you are tired. I have a 12 week old myself and I do understand where you are coming from.

Just a few randoms thoughts...

...Yes, If you continue to introduce formula topups, especially at night this will lead to the premature ending of breastfeeding (which you understand)

...As he is gaining well and is a happy, alert baby during the day, the dropping down the centiles is more likely to be catch down growth and nothing to worry about.

...He might seem to settle 'better' after a formula bottle feed, however this is partly because the stomach can be stretched more than nature intended whilst feeding with a bottle. Especially if it is formula rather than EBM, as formula is a food type which is harder to digest for a baby.

...Lastly the evening behaviour sounds pretty normal to me. My 12 week old son fed last night between 6pm and 9pm constantly. I took him to bed (we co-sleep) latched him on and went to sleep. He was feeding a LOT, maybe hourly. I think we are going though a growth spurt, so I am feeding at the first sign of a feeding cue so my milk increases asap and in a few days we'll be in a new feeding pattern.

I am wondering, if you are having a growth spurt, what is the effect of the top ups ? Would that increase the time needed for your milk supply to catch up ?

ITA with PP, I would learn to nurse lying down, co-sleep and cut back on the formula top ups if you wish to continue breastfeeding. The other thing to remember is studies show us that a breastfed baby with some formula at night will sleep less than a fully breastfed baby, another reason to try and get rid of the topups.

It is hard, I hope you get some more sleep soon. If this is your first baby, sleep when ever he sleeps, everyone tells you this but so many first time mums (including me, last time) just end up doing housework instead of catching up on lost sleep.

rock! [goes back to bed]

Not going to tell you how many times I BF my 16 month old last night

makkapakka is totally right. my dd did very similar things to makkapakka'a and your dc, but it's only reading about it now that i'm remembering it. it will get better. i blame all these books that bang on about 4hrly feeding - noone tells you that bf babies feed for ages and ages in the early weeks. dd used to feed for about 5and a half hrs every evening ,prob to get my supply up after me giving her bottles of formula - it's catchh 22 isn't it?

gokwancarr I think latch is ok - it's been checked and there's no soreness, he's gaining well, no air sucking etc.
He has infacol every feed and gripe water after some if he's struggling with a burp.
Interesting that you managed to mix feed and go back to exclusive, thanks for telling me that.

Throckenholt the sleep isn't so much longer as happening earlier - he only actually sleeps an extra 20-30 mins.
He also doesn't really cluster feed - after his 6:30 feed he's not interested in feeding (pulls off after a minute or so) until he's had a sleep (from about 9pm till 11pm).
We have been trying a shift system, but the problem is that even if I've had good sleep until then, being awake for 3 hours from 3-6am just kills all that benefit and I pretty much want to die! I am so impressed at you managing to BF twins.

Sorry, I think have misrepresented the picture! He's not cluster feeding in any way - he's not remotely interested in a BF during any of his non settling times. he pulls off quickly and just goes back to grizzling.
He will just about doze in a sling, but doesn't really fall asleep, so he and us are still not properly resting.
I wouldn't mind the sleep deprivation if it was benefitting him (i.e he was feeding) but he is just miserable and overtired too...

hopefully, when do you go to bed? If he genuinely doesn't want to feed at all after 6.30 then could you hand him over to DP and get yourself to bed then? I was so resentful of losing my evenings but let's face it, they're not spent having fun at the moment anyway and the extra sleep is vital. I found myself actually taking DS to bed with me from 6/7pm most nights for a while.

Cross posted with your post about co-sleeping.

If you are uncomfortable about having him in the main bed, what about side carring the cot to your side of the bed, with or without the side. SO you still get the advantage of closeness and not having to get up in the middle of the night.

We do this and though we co-sleep in the main bed most nights. However on those occassions I have the odd glass of wine, our DS is safely in the side car cot attached to my side of the bed.

If the baby is waking up your partner, get him to wear ear plugs or take turns with the baby !!!

I am so impressed at you managing to BF twins.

I didn't actually - I had to express for them (I wouldn't recommend that option either !) - but I pretty much had to work the same routine to be able to express in the night for them - and the only way it worked for me was to go to bed early and let DH deal with the 8pm-1am stretch.

If he is overtired in the evening it may be a result of not getting enough sleep during the day - I found the more mine slept during the day the better they slept at night. The never awake for more than 2 hours rule worked really well for mine.

Another option - try laying him on a towel with no nappy on - for some strange reason that really settled my grumbly babies and gave us all a bit of peace.

Sorry, keep thinking of more things - this thread is bringing back memories of this time last year for me. Is he getting overtired and then finding it hard to settle?

I was about to link you to some threads of mine this time last year but having scanned some of them I thought better of it!

Keep repeating - this too shall pass, because it will - it's true.

I think over tiredness is possible, certainly for the 7pm settling (so perhaps having a knock on effect on the others). He sleeps for something in the region of 3.5-4 hours from 7:30am (when he wakes himself for a feed) until 5pm, then the evening routine starts and the hell begins.
He generally has a good morning nap and a good long lunchtime one, but the afternoon nap is getting more and more difficult for me to settle him at, so he often only gets 20-30 mins and then he's hungry again. It's been so dark and miserable that I haven't been taking him out in the pram to 'force' him to sleep for that one (he will happily have the others in his cot or in the pram), but maybe I need to.

makkapakka I could turn him over to DP, but then he's absolutely knackered and I can't 'use' him for the night feeds, if you know what I mean. At the moment he is already doing 1 night feed (complete with an extra 2 hours awake time) and helping me settle him after the 10:30pm feed, so is actually getting less sleep than I am.

OK my advice then is to do whatever you need to do to get him sleeping better in the day time. The thing where naps get more difficult as the day goes on smacks of overtiredness to me and that's where I got in a mess. So try to get ahead of him - get him into the pram and on the road before you think he'd normally sleep. If he likes to be rocked or fed to sleep then go for it. Just try to recoup his sleep deficit by whatever means you can for a few days and you might find things start to ease up.

I agree with forcing the nap issue. We have that problem here, and I have sort of given up and just gone for going out with the pram when it just isn't happening at home. DS is a nightmare when overtired and fights sleep like you wouldn't believe.

OK, I have promised myself I will give it at least until next Wednesday before giving in and adding any more formula to his life - DP is here during the days on the weekend, and my mother's agreed to come from Monday to Wed to help as well, so I can give everything maximum chance to settle down without resorting to the bottle.

I'm going to 'force' his day time naps for a couple of days and see if that improves the evening situation, and I think also just not even try to settle him in the cot between 7 and 10:30pm, just keep him in the sling (he doesn't necessarily settle there either, but at least manages to doze on and off). That should get his sleep back on track so at least we can begin to ascertain if it's a sleep problem or a feed problem.