So today I learned that gorillas nurse their young until they are 3 or 4....

[georgimama]

That's it really. Was at Bristol Zoo and the lovely keeper gave a talk about all their gorillas. They have a 23 month old baby and he is still nursing and apparently will continue to do so until he is about 3 or 4.

I just thought that was lovely. Seriously cute gorilla baby.

In many developing countries formula feeding is considered something to 'aspire' to, because 'richer' folk do it, and because of the marketing that indicates that it is 'better' than giving b/milk (speaking of Nestle, Tangle )

Natural term breastfeeding is also about comfort, and affection. That's the case in both developed and developing countries. Its not just about nutrition. That's just how the breastfeeding relationship starts. It develops into something more than that which is why ending it prematurely isnt just about increased risk of allergies and obesity. (Although we've all heard the term "Comfort eating" havent we? )

then let's permanently contracept all gorillas, chimps, baboons and monkey.

kill 'em all! let God sort 'em out .

expat

even these???

yes, even those.

picture that creature baring its teeth at you.

cool! he's showing me right where to site my rifle scope!

"At no point in this country do babies risk death if we choose to bottlefeed them."

Not true. It's far less likely than in developing countries, granted, but babies fed formula in this country are at greater risk of all sorts of things - death being one of them.

That's a fairly hard statement you make there, do you have evidence to support that?

Yes, thank you. Sadly

Rhubarb - is your quote of 14:46 in response to my questions? If so, I'm a little unclear as to where its from and what its refering to.

Thinking about it some more, if we want to get some concept of what "natural" term breast feeding is for humans, isn't the availability of bottles and formula irrelevant? If there are cultures that BF for >5 years as the norm, aren't they more likely to do that because that is the way things have always been done in their society? Intuitively, I would expect this cultural norm to persist back for a few 100 (if not 1000) years - well before formula would have been available.

Hunker - that is tragic

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15121986?dopt=Abstract is a study that estimates the risk in terms of excess infant mortality of formula feeding in the USA (I don't think we have a UK study).

I feel kinda vomity about playing "I'm right and you're not" about infant deaths I'm really not doing that - but I can't agree with stuff I know not to be true, not when it's so important.

I feel the same, Hunker...it's uncomfortable and horrible for anyone who feels the issue might touch them personally.

I thought you might. It's like playing utterly sick Top Trumps

I would be interested to hear what you think though, Rhubarb.

I agree.

This is hard. What is the right thing to do, when someone posts "there's no difference between breastfeeding and formula feeding" or words to that effect?

I can see only 3 options:

1. Say nothing. That'll mean that the hundreds or even thousands of people who read the thread at the time or in the future will assume that it's probably true, since no-one is arguing. They might then make a decision about feeding their baby that they'll later deeply regret.

2. Say "no, that's not true" but leave it at that. As you haven't backed up what you say, it looks like just your own personal opinion, and why would anyone base an important decision on the personal opinion of a random person on the internet? I wouldn't.

3. Say "no, that's not true" and explain the known risks of formula with links to the evidence.

If you do it honestly and accurately, your post will be a devastating read for anyone who wanted to bf but couldn't. Many, many people will be upset. Someone on the brink of pnd might be tipped over the edge by feelings of having failed their baby. Many people will view the post as a direct attack on formula feeders. And many will see it as evidence of militant scaremongering by pro-bf nazis.

All 3 options are horrible, basically. And the most truthful and honest option is also the most horrible.

I just don't know.

for welliemum

Good post, wm.

Th other complication is that it's only in very unusual cases - like the link hunker posted to the devastating effect of contaminated formula - that anyone can say formula feeding is a direct cause of an individual infant death.

On a population level, no one sensible argues against the facts that formula feeding increases ill health, and (see the US study I linked to)infant mortality, even in developed countries. But predicting, or explaining, the effects on one individual baby's health is usually impossible.

None of that stops parents taking it all personally...understandably.

Great post WM

Good post welliemum.

It's also the case that formula-fed babies are at a 50% increased risk of SIDS.

Fab post, welliemum. My answer to this one is that we have to do 3, really, while making sure to put it in the context of risk, as tiktok says, not being an absolute predictor of what happens to any one baby (an argument we also need in the case of all those 'I was ff/weaned at 3 weeks and I was fine while so-and-so who was exbf for a year has asthma and eczema, so there' posts) and of the fact that bf support in our culture is lamentable still, that a lot of factors conspire against bf and so an unhappy or curtailed bf experience is not at all an indicator of how hard someone tried or didn't try or how much they wanted to do the best for the baby. In other words, we need to be as sensitive as we can, but as honest and accurate as we must.

When I was struggling with ds1's feeding in his early weeks and mixed feeding him, I was DEVASTATED to read a post of - I think it was you, tiktok - saying 'Formula feeding ass risks'. It really really upset me and I wished she hadn't posted it. But it stuck in my mind and added to my determination to get bf right. And here I am, 3.5 years down the line, tandem feeding. So the long term has made me very glad for her honesty.

I knew the risks of SIDs was higher in non-breastfed babies. Didn't realise that in a country supposedly so medically advanced that it made much difference

ROFL! Has risks, not ass risks! Sorry tiktok

x posts VS - my ROFL looks a bit odd and misplaced there

(anything happening on the calendar?)