So today I learned that gorillas nurse their young until they are 3 or 4....

[georgimama]

That's it really. Was at Bristol Zoo and the lovely keeper gave a talk about all their gorillas. They have a 23 month old baby and he is still nursing and apparently will continue to do so until he is about 3 or 4.

I just thought that was lovely. Seriously cute gorilla baby.

[cthea]

"Maybe it was a 2nd date?
You are being very judgemental"

Years ago DH's workmate was going to Moscow for a few days with work. He asked how he could meet girls. He got the usual replies: bars, discos etc. He seemed wounded: "But you don't understand. I'll be there for a few days. I want a relationship."

[Pruners]

Message withdrawn

[cthea]

at Pruners' bedroom antics

[PuzzleRocks]

Are you suggesting Pruners goes in for chimp fingering?

[PuzzleRocks]

Are you suggesting Pruners goes in for chimp fingering?

[cthea]

No, no chimps involved.

[Pruners]

Message withdrawn

[PuzzleRocks]

So you say . We call ours the master bedroom.

[VeniVidiVickiQV]

[expatinscotland]

I actually saw Jane Goodall giving a talk when I was a university.

Brilliant lecture!

Too bad it was about those nasty chimps.

[pointygravedogger]

I saw a chimp at the zoo eating a piece of its own faeces.

[mawbroon]

DS pretends to be all different animals when we cuddle up in bed for his bedtime breastmilk.

He says, "I am the baby mouse and you are the mummy mouse"

I will have to tell him to be a baby gorilla and then report how we get on.

[welliemum]

expat - I'd love to hear Jane Goodall talk, she's had an interesting life.

at your anti-primate stance - although as a primate myself, I am of course deeply, deeply hurt by your comments.

[expatinscotland]

she's an amazing speaker!

she almost made me care about those putrid chimps.

see, i quantified my hatred of primates - it excludes humans and some great ape species, gibbons, for example.

but truly no gorilla, baboon, chimp or macaques should be spared.

[welliemum]

Now, I'm with you on the macaques, totally.

When I am Empress of the Known Universe, they will be first to the wall, along with Barney the dinosaur.

[Tangle]

Ah, now if your chimps are putrid that explains a lot - I doubt many people could find those endearing

[peachsmuggler]

Aww mawbroon that is soooo cute!

[PuzzleRocks]

Tis very cute Mawbroon. DD does the milky dance when she wants some. I also love how she says "and that one there now!" when she switches boob.

[wastingmyeducation]

But Rhubarb, by your argument, brushing teeth isn't necessary, as we have blenders in this country, and false teeth if we choose. I'd rather have my own teeth and bite apples. In the same way I'd rather DS had a lower risk of X, Y and Z.
And breastmilk isn't substitute babyfood because the 'normal' babyfood is contaminated in developing countries.
Just because we have a choice doesn't make the options equal.

xx

[Rhubarb]

I think you are missing the argument somewhat.

I am not saying that bf is not beneficial, of course it is. This is not an argument against breastfeeding, extended or otherwise. Interesting that someone presumed I didn't do extended breastfeeding - at what age is extended breastfeeding?

Comparing it to brushing teeth is not a fair analogy. If you don't brush your teeth then your teeth fall out admist lots of pain and you then have to incur the huge cost of false ones. Not to mention gum rot.

But you can choose to ff babies and still be fairly sure that the baby will survive being given a bottle. Whereas in developing countries this is not so because of dirty and contaminated water and bottles. And of course many mothers cannot afford the huge cost of formula milk. So for them it really is a case of you breastfeed or the baby risks death.

At no point in this country do babies risk death if we choose to bottlefeed them.

Yes you may argue about the increased health benefits of breastfeeding and the increased health risks of not doing so. But the risks involved in bottle feeding are still small, you are not condemning your baby to a lifetime of asthma or allergies if you bottle feed, the risk is increased, but not substantially so.

If you do breastfeed of course you are giving the baby a better chance of fighting off these allergies and ailments. But it's not a question of life or death for us.

So when people point to countries such as Ethopia and say they breastfeed the child until the child is 5, they fail to mention that the only reason they do that is because there is a substantial risk the child might catch a fatal disease if they didn't.

I'm not trying to turn this into a bottle versus breast debate, merely pointing out the differences between choice and necessity.

[Tangle]

Rhubarb - I'm very interested in the background data you have, as you seem very sure that health is the ONLY reason that people in developing coutries breastfeed for longer periods. Do you have the details of any anthropological studies to back that up? My understanding was that why women breastfeed and what duration they breastfeed for was a very complex and multilayered issue, whatever culture they came from. I'd like to read up on it if that understanding is wrong as its a subject I find very interesting

[Rhubarb]

Simple Tangle - it has become culturally acceptable because where do the women in developing countries get their formula from? How do they pay for it? It is common knowledge that water is often dirty and unsanitised, so how do they get clean water to mix up the milk? Where do the bottles come from? How do they pay for those? How do they keep them clean? What do they do when food is sparse? How do they keep their children's hunger at bay then?

It is culturally the norm to practise extended breastfeeding in developing countries - and that is the reason why. You'd have to be fairly rich to be able to bottle feed.

[Tangle]

Rhubarb - I completely take the point for newborn infants (which is why I'm boycotting Nestle at the moment), and up to a year or so old. But beyond that, from what I have read, most cultures would have started to introduce solids to a greater or lesser degree. As children eat more solids so milk, of whatever type, becomes less critical from a nutritional standpoint.

If I'm reading what you've written correctly, you're argument is that women in developing countries breast feed because they can't afford to bottle feed. But that doesn't answer the question of why they continue to breast feed for 3, 4, 5, or more years rather than stopping at 1 or 2. Why is it culturally the norm? That's what I'd be interested in knowing

[FlabbyTumSquashyBum]

Bit of an aside, but dolphins also nurse their young for at least 3 years, and nursing up to the age of 10 has been reported.

[Rhubarb]

Contraception. They continue to breastfeed until they are ready for another child.

"In rural areas family planning is not common due to religious reasons and couples normally have children soon after marriage. Contraceptive use is more common in metropolitan areas. Breastfeeding often serves as a natural form of birth control. For married couples in urban areas, the most common methods of birth control are oral contraceptives, IUDs, and condoms."

Also, because breastfeeding is a useful top-up for when food is scarce.

A lot of emphasis is put on the cultural norm in countries we consider to be more attuned to nature. But in Ethopia they also wean at around 4-6 months using this method "The majority of the mothers used "swallow or suffocate" method in feeding their children, though cups and bottles were also mentioned as important feeding methods."