Question re. dropping night feeds in a 15 month old (I know he doesn't need them but we're stuck in this habit!)

[genia]

Hi
I have decided that I now really have to do something about our ds waking up in the night (a lot) and drinking milk (breastmilk) every time to go back to sleep. Since he is fed to sleep when he goes to sleep, is it unreasonable to expect him to be able to go to sleep otherwise say between 12pm and 5am which is the period in which I would like him to stop breastfeeding initially. He is also breastfed to sleep for his naps (unless he is in his buggy or carseat at the time) so is it cruel to ask him to sleep differently in the middle of the night. I ask because I wouldn't have a problem (for the moment) with him falling asleep on the breast when he goes to bed, but would like to sort the night out. Then I could tackle the way he goes to sleep later on???
I'm a bit at a loss here because there seems to be so much to deal with - naps, going to sleep, night feeds... Also he sleeps on a futon with me at the moment and I would like to move him back to his cot but that would also be for later...
Any thoughts welcome.
Also, I am expecting about three nights of him being annoyed.. what do you think?
Thanks

hmmm difficult genia as you say it is such a confirmed habit. I slept with ds and basically just waited till he got older before he managed without me. I started with daytime naps actually to get him to sleep in his cot and he felt less need for reassurance then. He was about 18 months. Then I started putting him in his cot early in the morning. He was getting better in the cot but then we moved house when he was 20 months old and this set things back. In any case he went to his own bed just before age 3 and loves it now so they aren't attached to you forever honest!

But to get back to the present - have you tried your dh/dp settling him sometimes so at least he has another person there. Otherwise maybe feed him before he falls asleep then settle him in your bed, rubbing his tummy etc so he is used to falling asleep on his own. If I think of anything else I'll get back.

I do not think that you would have success stopping the night feeds as long as he is sleeping with you. Obviously it is worth a try first. You are going to have to be prepared to stand your ground and not allow him access to the breast at night. I certainly would let him still feed as normal during the day. It would possibly be more helpful to have someone else deal with him during the night. That is why I wonder would it not be best to get him used to the cot prior to stopping the night feed - then you can stay away (in theory). I have friends who tried stopping the feeds during the night and had such terrible hours of crying that it was easier to offer the breast and everyone gets back to sleep quicker. Depends how strongly you feel you need to stop night feeds. Another friend did not stop night feeds until her ds was 3years when he stopped them himself. Good luck.

genia, I don't think you are being cruel. It sounds like you've done more than enough and should give yourself more credits.

The question is, what will you offer as the substitute to the breast and how long can you tolerate frequent middle-of-the-night cryings. I think, depending on the substitute to the breast you plan to offer, you could end up being much more tired than feeding him in bed because he will still wake up the same number of times until he has learned to put himself to sleep without your help.

For us, when we tried to night wean her the first time the only substitute dd took was one of us (mostly dh because with me she'll want breast) holding her almost upright (many times accompanied by patting/singing). It was very difficult because dh ended up holding her almost all night. And she seemed to not sleep well and wake up more often too. We gave up after several nights because she seemed so miserable with the sudden change and we just couldn't hold her all night long for many nights in a row. Our strategy at that time was to hold off BF as long as we could without her screaming too much. I think that didn't work well because she ended up being both hungry and tired and didn't sleep well as a result, ie she fell asleep because she was too tired but couldn't sleep well because she still felt hungry (out of habit, but nonetheless hungry) and woke up again very soon.

Anyway, my new (current) strategy is to give her scheduled feeds, like at least 3-4 hours apart for 5-10 min at the most each time, just like what she can manage when she's awake. So now I know she shouldn't be hungry in between those scheduled feedings and get dh to hold her or try to hold her / cuddle her myself. Also I assume she's not hungry because my breasts don't get so full even though I don't feed her at 2 hours after the last feed like before. But if I wait for 5-6 hours, my breasts will be quite full. I think this is easier for her and for us. And hopefully we can space out the feedings more and more and try to feed less and less each time too.

My experience is like what mears said. It is very difficult for her and for me to sleep with her and not feed her. If she sees me in the room (since she's young enough to not know it I can sometimes hide under the duvet), she'll want me. And if she gets to me, she'll want the breast.
And many many times in the middle of the night (no matter what strategy I decided upon during the day) I just wanted to go back to sleep and decided to feed her because it's quick and easy.

So as much as I hated to, I tried putting her in the cot. Some nights it got better, she woke up less (4-5 times compared to 6-7) but other nights she just didn't let us put her there and we had to go back to bf her in bed again. But it was definitely much easier to get her to accept a holding instead of a feeding when she slept in the cot.

We also plan on sleeping with her for a while longer now, so we're working toward getting her to accept a cuddle or just our presence to go back to sleep.

Just to add that I think it really depends on your child. I knew someone who cut out all night feeds at about 18 mths by having her husband sleep between her and her son and offering him water in a sippy cup - after three nights he gave up and still sleeps with them a year later but with no night feeds. My dd, on the other hand, would have drive us all demented for weeks I think if we'd tried that. At 2.5 she has suddenly started waking up only once in the night most nights and it feels great - I could never have imagined it would happen even six months ago! And I didn't do anything she just got older.

Well Genia, I also think it will be very hard to stop the nightfeeds if your ds is sleeping with you. I would start with the cot, then space out the feeds more - ie no feeds between 12 and 5am as you suggested, and only then work on wakings. I suspect it will be pretty frustrating for your ds to be so near to the source of food and milky comfort yet denied access! I certainly don't think you are cruel. I think you are exceptionally self-sacrificing and tender hearted but you sound like you now need a little more continuous sleep, which is hardly unreasonable. I found that moving ds from our bed to his cot was actually amazingly easy. In fact, he didn't notice, though he was only about three months old (or younger - incredible how you forget, eh?) and he also didn't notice when we put his cot in another room. That was the easy bit, however, and stopping night wakings took a bit longer. However it is very much worth doing. I'd start with the cot, myself. Good luck.

Genia, you might want to look at this link:

Dr Jay Gordon for a fairly gentle approach, by an attachment parenting advocate.

Can't say I've tried it though (we used CC and moved DS out of our room at 6.5mths).

Hi, thanks for all your answers and your understanding... Florenceuk, I really liked your link - totally in line with my question and our situation...
When I'm brave enough I'll give it a go, try maybe to involve dh and I'll let you know how it went...

genia, I've never co-slept and until recently would also have assumed that it would be difficult to stop night feeds whilst still co-sleeping. However I recently met someone who managed to do this without much bother with her one year old - so it clearly can be done with some babies. I guess you just have to sleep on your tummy, boobs well out of reach and try soothing him back to sleep. But like I said, never tried it myself. Good luck.

Florenceuk - that's a wonderful link to dr jay's pages - exactly what I need too !
genia - I decided to stop b/fing in order to teach dd how to get to sleep on her own. So far we've cut out all daytime feeds but still feed to sleep and a couple of times when she wakes in the night. Not co-sleeping, except eg when she's teething / poorly and waking more often, and I'm too lazy to keep getting out of bed to feed her. Agree with you that it's so difficult to really know where to start, but for me I think it'll be night feeds, then going to sleep then naps last. Elizabeth Pantley's advice ("The No Cry Sleep Solution" is to do ANYTHING to get your child to sleep at naptimes, as she believes good naps equals good nights. HTH, and very good luck to you (and me !)

My DS alwasy fell asleep on the breast and soon after one year I relaised that this could go on forever unless I did something as he was still feeding every 2 hours and I was knackered. I managed to drop the first night feed by simply sticking my head under the pillow when he woke. He didn't even bother that much and although I was prepared for a battle after a couple of nights he stopped waking. The later night feed was harder. I tried getting DH to handle it instead of me but he is a bit soft and always picked DS up. So then I tried moving him to his own room and within a couple of nights he was sleeping through. It was amazing as I'd geared myself up for a battle and just didn't get one. At first I stood by the cot to comfort him but then just ignored him.

However your situation is complicated by the fact that he is sleeping with you, not that there is anything wrong with that but he will smell you and automatically head in the right direction. With him so close it will be much easier to give in when you are half asleep. If you really don't want him sleeping in a cot yet then perhaps your DH could sleep with him instead for a while so he will still have the human comfort but no boobs. He could always come back to you once hes sleeping through and your boobs have stopped squirting in the middle of the night!

Tomps and Genia - knew my obsessive web-browsing would be useful to somebody!! Best of luck - seven hours sleep in 7 nights sounds good!

Catherine, Tomps and Florenceuk, thanks for your messages. I think I will give Dr Jay's thing a try after our next visit to the in-laws... The idea of getting dh to do some of the co-sleeping is also a good one I think. Good luck to you too Tomps - let us know how you get on.

Genia - any change in your feeding / sleeping situation ? Dd has just recently stopped waking for her second feed at night, so only waking once. She's also got herself off to sleep quite a few times, with me lying on the single bed with her, when b/f hasn't sent her to sleep. So I'm just going to see how if she carries on like this and maybe will wean herself. How about you ?

Hi Tomps
no change yet but then I haven't tried anything as yet... I'm glad your daughter seems to be changing her pattern by herself. Ds does sometimes wake A LOT less but by the same token sometimes A LOT more... I suppose the main problem is the way he gets back to sleep. However I think I am going to try and deal with the night-feeds next week... I'll keep you posted! I suppose we are both still quite attached to breastfeeding, but dropping the night feeds (which is kind of necessary!) does not mean stopping!

genia - glad I'm not the only one to revisit old threads. I often wonder how people are getting on after sharing a particular problem ... best of luck for next week if you do go for it. Mums I know seem to have had no problems dropping night feeds. All did it much younger though ! Did you read Dr jay's stuff ?