Am I wasting my time?

[ObsidianBlackbirdMcNight]

Have posted a few times on here. My 15 day son is mix feeding and until today was still taking the breast as well as one bottle (tommee tippee BF bottle) of 90 mls formula after each feed. I'm limiting it to aboyut 40 mins on each breast before giving the formula, but he stiull drinks the whole bottle - so how much BM is h e realistically getting from me? He's usually happy to feed, BF counsellor/MW/HV all said latch is good and he's drinking, not just sucking. He does however tend to stay awake for 5-6 hours feeding on and off, then sleep longer than 3 hours, maybe that is his pattern, and so he is just hungrier when he feeds? Please tell me I'm not wasying my time feeding him for 1.5 hour stretches?

Congratulations on your new baby! I'm pretty new to these boards as well. That's what my dd (17 weeks) did too, so don't worry: you're absolutely not wasting your time. Keep going! I spent about 4 weeks anchored to my rocking chair - it doesn't last forever. I'm sure someone with more experience and knowledge will give you more info soon, but wanted to reassure you asap!

congrats on the baby kat! It is hard- For me, I found find the more I feed (and empty) both breasts the more milk I produce- so I don't think you "waste" long periods of time on the breast . It is impossible to say how much breast milk you are giving him, 90mls of formula does sound like a lot to me, BUT then again each baby differs in his requirements.
From my reading of mumsnet etc some babies do well with mix feedings from the start others will end up on exclusive formula quite rapidly.
Have you tried breast compression? Here is a link from jack newman

[http://www.thebirthden.com/Newman.html]

I also found that the assymetric latch shortened my feeding duration in the early days. It may sound impractical, but the early days became much easier once I took off my wristwatch!

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Oops, sorry to jump in on kat's behalf but if I remember correctly she is mixed feeding because her son lots a lot of weight and had to be readmitted to hospital where top-ups were given (same thing happened to dd and I).

thanks - he didn't have to go to hospital but isn't gaining weight after a big loss so i don't have much choice. am struggling to get him to stay on at all now. it's all shit

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Hi Kat

I really do sympathise i went through this with my ds, he also lost a lot of weight and I had to top up. I remember the guilt, the tiredness, the feeling useless, the tiredness, the why me, the tiredness and most of all the really SORE nips. Everyone told me it would get better - it did.

thanks folks. have decided not to limit time on the breast. might mak me insane but i'll do it as long as i can stand it and he's drinking. however still need to top up as he's still gaining very slowly. day 16 and still 200g under birth weight. he's tearful and wriggly and won't stay on well. i know i need to eat more/better and drink more fluids too but it's bloody hard to take care of yourself with a baby attached to you. going to parents for a few days so should hlp with being looked after! dh is great but only here in the evenings.

kat - kudos to you for hanging on in there

No, you don't need to eat, drink or rest especially well to breastfeed, though doing all of that may make you feel better, and that's gotta be a good thing.

I can understand that you are concerned about your baby's weight and growth, and sometimes, formula supplements are needed to ensure the baby has enough energy to breastfeed well...but 90 mls of formula each feed is a lot and you might want to check back with the people advising you that this large total amount is unavoidable..as is said here, the more formula he has, the less breastmilk is stimulated. In cases - like yours - where some formula is needed, it has to be carefully judged, according to individual needs. I would say that 90 ml top ups after every feed are just not compatible with continuing to breastfeed....do get this checked, if you can.

It doesn't sound as if anyone has suggested skin to skin holding with you, which will enable you to bf him little and often, which may suit him, and which will prevent l...o...n...g sleeps. I agree that speaking to a bfc will help.

See that's what concerns me too. But I don't know how to increase my own supply and reduce the FM without starving him. He was weighed agan today and sill hasn't regained birth weight, and only out on 90grams since thursday. I'm worried my supply is drying up already, although I can still express the same amount.

Best way to increase your supply is simply to feed more, the more you feed the more milk you produce. If you offer him the breast at every feed and let him feed for as long as he wants then he won't starve (presuming his latch is ok)
If you can, then limit the amount of formula you are giving and this will help your supply.
Other things to try are lots of skin to skin, having baths together, co-sleeping or at least breastfeeding on demand during the night.
If you can, try to worry a bit less about his weight gain as this is just added pressure on you, I do think we are a bit weight obsessed in this country with new babies.
Have you looked at kellymom for advice/info?
www.kellymom.com/babyconcerns/growth/index.html

kat, there is definitely a justified concern about your baby's weight gain. If all the weights are accurate, then I can certainly see why action is being taken, with supplements if necessary, to address it....but supplements should be limited and frequent, effective breastfeeding plus expressing should happen too. You haven't said how many times he's feeding, if he feeds from two, three or even four or five sides each time, if you are exprtessing - and those aspects could be crucial.

But 90 mls of formula at each feed is the first place to start questioning, I think....with that amount every day (totalling what must be well over half a litre) the risk is that it takes the place of breastmilk.

What sort of professional help and support are you getting?

Hi and thanks for answering....I'll try to give you all the details and see whether you would be kind enough to give your opinion!

Last week (mon - thurs) I was breastfeeding on demand all day and night, apart from a midnight feed which was 90-120 mls formula. Also expressing every now and then but without a set pattern. Getting under 10mls each time (approx 10 mins each breast) He lost 60g in that time so I was advised to top up at each feed with 90 mls formula. (during this time he was feeding a lot, and i was getting frazzled)

On friday the MW advised that I limit the BFs to 40 mins each breast for my own saNITY. Plus express between each feed. Then give him 90 mls after each feed. Was 'working' in that he was feeding approx 4 times in 24 hours, a good BF, a bottle, sleep. So he was getting about 400mls FM in 24 hours. Sunday he started getting fractious on the breast and I was worried that the supply was less. Got very stressed, gave him an Ex FM feed in the afternoon, chilled, persevered with BF in the evening despite him crying and refusing to latch and we got him to BF in the end. Since then I have decided not to limit time on the breast - not a good plan. MW weighed him yesterday, he gained 90g since thursday - not bad, but still too slow and not up to BW. MW not too concerned, advised to up the bottles 5 in 24 hours.

New plan today - BF on demand as usual, but give him 60mls when he has finished both breasts (I am offering each several times BTW, and he is going basck onto A when he has had a god while on B, then back on B, and even back on A if he will take it) then put him back on the breast, and only after he has had another BF give him another 60ml bottle. That way if he still only feeds 4 times in 24 hours he gets as much BM as possible, and also gets approx 480 mls FM, so increasing the amount but spacing it out IYSWIM?

I have an appt with a bona fide BF counsellor but not til monday as I'm staying with my parents til friday. I do trust her tho and have had phone advice from her. I did see a NHS BF counsellor in the first week who helped me sort the latch out and he's def latching on well, and drinking.

I tried to express just now and got bog all but hoping that's because he had a massive feed less than 2 hours ago. Yesterday I got nearly 20mls in 2 goes which was good going!

So....if you can wade through that and make sense of it, let me know what you think?

Kat

I can't offer some of the expert advice others on here can but wanted to let you know I had an almost identical situation. My DD would appear to have her fill of BM only to take a 90 - 120 mls top-up of either EBM or FM straight after.

It was completely exhausting and depressing to think that BF wasn't working and felt like such a waste of time.

I was just about ready to quit BF when she suddenly started to take less from the bottle. Her weight gain was still very slow so I tried to continue to give her a top-up but she very gradually rejected it to the point now where she wont take a bottle at all- but that is another thread..

Her weight gain now exclusively BF is still slow but acceptable.

IIRC she started to reject the bottle at about 6 weeks and phased out completely by 8.

Whatever the outcome for you and your son you are doing your very best and you should remember that when you feel down. It may be a coincidence but BF finally felt established for us once I felt I had got over the shock of being a new mum and feeling like everything I was doing was wrong... I mean of course I do still feel like that but not every minute of the day!

xx

Kat, thanks for the mammoth post with the details It does help get a better picture.

Last week, when you were feeding on demand for four days and your baby lost weight, I wonder if breastfeeding was truly effective - that is, was enough milk getting into him? If bf was not as effective as it might have been, your supply would have been affected, too. The bottle he had at midnight would have meant he went a long time between breastfeeds and this would also have reduced your supply...and it's sad that the midwife gave you what I can only describe as very poor advice. It was 'good' in so far as getting calories into your baby, but very poor in so far as supporting your bf.

90 ml top ups of formula 4-5 times a day are just not compatible with supporting breastfeeding - and four breastfeeds a day is just not enough for the vast majority of women to build up and maintain a milk supply I feel this is difficult for me to say, and for you to hear, but you need to know. It's good you are 'switch nursing' ie going from breast to breast each time, as this boosts supply, but if it's only 4-5 times in 24 hours it just isn't anywhere near enough to protect your breastmilk supply...your baby will (probably) gain because of this large amount of formula, but you will (probably) find it harder and harder to breastfeed.

If you are using expressing to increase your milk supply - and this is a good idea as long as it is as well as bf more often - then it is fine to try after 2 hours. Try it every 2 hours when you can - but better to bf as often as this, really.

I think it's great you are seeing a bfc you can trust, but leaving it until next week to reassess what's happening is a long time.

I can understand the midwife wanted you to limit the time on the breast if you were getting stressed and upset - but not the frequency. A baby who gets 90ml top ups after every breastfeed is unlikely to want to breastfeed as often as he might otherwise do, and long gaps between breastfeeds reduce the supply - it's frequency of feeding that boosts supply, and to build up and maintain a good milk supply, most mums will need to bf at least 8 times in 24 hours, using both breasts at least once each time.

Any midwife who has not explained this to you, alongside the advice to top up, is not doing her job properly, IMO

Marla - thanks 4 your story! Gives me hopwe, as do all the other ppositive stories on here. My mum also managed to mix feed me forn 10 months so i k ow it's possible!

Hi again Kat

I just wanted to echo Tiktok's advice. I was offering my DD the breast as soon as I felt she was asking for it, which was at least (it felt like a lot more) 8 times in 24 hours (both sides). I gave her a bottle not after every single BF but after a BF every three hours... so that is probably how I managed to keep up my milk supply despite her taking so much bottle milk.

It honestly felt like I would never leave the house again as I was feeding her around the clock but it was worth it to get there in the end.

Good luck x