was shocked by the amount of bottle-feeders in hospital

[misdee]

found it quite upsetting at times. my bed was by the empties 'bottle bank', so saw how many people on the ward were bottle feeding. in the 4 days i was there, there were 10 women on the ward in total, and only myself and another lady was breastfeeding. The midwives offered help to everyone, but most decided on bottles.

the reason i found it upsetting was because i didnt want dd3 to have formula but that choice was basically taken away from me whilst she was SCBU and was given formula by tube.

i was provided with a few pads straight after delivery, but the rest of my stay was to provide my own. had to bring in my own nappies as well, but noticed a poster in the nursery when i was cleaning dd3 after vomiting up formula (i said 26ml was too much) advertising free cloth nappies packs if u purchased a pack prior to delivery, or a hospital trial pack for £3.50 i think it was.

Fairymum, thanks. It must be so much easier to b-feed when you're surrounded by people who know all the whys and wherefores of bfeeding. Lucky mums in Scandanavia!

The stats are interesting, HunkerM. The Poland one is very interesting - a high start but the lowest 6mth rate. I wonder why?

I would like to see maternity units employing lactation consultants and mums who have successfully breastfed as advisors and supporters of new Mums. Many midwives are out of date, unskilled and unable to adequately support new mothers. Health Visitors are even worse IMO - I don't think it's any coincidence that the breastfeeding rates plummet once the midwife stops going in. (Having been a midwife and now a HV I can safely say what I see around me). During my Health Visitor training there were just two hours allocated to breastfeeding and the lecture was pretty appalling. I doubt anyone who had not been a midwife or a breastfeeding Mum got anything out of it.
Suspect that all this, plus the acceptance of bottlefeeding means that some Mums don't even try (not surprisingly).
I struggled dreadfully with breastfeeding (despite years of running breastfeeding workshops and being confident with supporting a new Mum) and there was no more ,lovely sight than that bottle of formula when, on day 4, my nipples were cracked and bleeding and I was crying at every feed. It's not always straightforward. In the end I hired a pump and expressed and bottlefed my DS (the only way I could cope). But in that time my midwife and my HV just said "oh - just bottlefeed". Helpful.

Misdee- I was also shocked when I had DD just how much pressure there was on the post-natal ward to give her formula.

She had quite bad jaundice and all the midwives kept telling me to 'flush it out' with formula. However I read at the time that breastmilk is the best treatment for jaundice so found it very confusing.

Everything you read during pregnancy rightly encourages you to bf... but then when you have the baby the MW attitudes (IME) contradict that.

My experience ended up with me in floods of tears to the NCT bf line who were amazing.

And I am 100% behind the idea of hospitals not providing free formula. I totally respect the right not to bf if you choose that, but I do think it sends out the wrong message if it's just given out as a matter of course. Personally I'm very glad I persisted but that only happened because I resisted that pressure and I completely understand how others can't always do that.

Amanda, when i suggested this to the head of midwifery at the hospital where I had DS1, I was told that having bf counsellors, lactation consultants etc., would "de-skill" midwives.

Which is a valid point, but only if the mw's are skilled to begin with!

Yep! Alot of midwives out there who are not being trained properly in breastfeeding and then attending conferences sponsered to the hilt by.....the babymilk industry.
They don't write those big fat checks for nice warm fuzzy feeling but because investing in midwives works. Next time you're near a midwife take a look at what she carries. I bet that at least one item of work paraphenalia will have the logo of a babymilk company somewhere.

Oh dear - on soapbox now.

but newyearmum, how do you think that not providing formula would actually change the percentage of women who b/f ? People have either made up their mind that they are going to bottle feed, and in which case would bring their own in anyway, or would be struggling to b/f and perhaps not being successful at it. If a woman is distraught and its not working, and she feels the baby is really in need of some sustenance, would you really deny her or the baby an alternative? Would it in any way, shape or form be a humane thing to do, to make her wait until the morning, or until a visitor came to bring her formula? I imagine that the majority of women who ask for formula are at the their wits end. What are you solving by making it harder for them.

Oops - "I'm not convinced by the argument that people don't like the thought of breast feeding or the feeling of breast feeding." This is not comparable to feeding your son broccoli, or getting up early in the morning, ie. we should all just buck up and get on with it. Breasts are linked to our sexuality, some people have really uncomfortable feelings about nursing a baby and should not be encouraged to do it if they feel negative like that. Even the NCT list several reasons why women should not B/F and one of them was feeling very negative or that it was horrible. To insist someone did it when they felt like that might affect the way they feel about themselves, the baby and ultimately might affect their sex lives which is an important part of life, and of which if there wasn't any, this wouldn't even be an issue

Misdee - 7.13pm "naughty me for being shocked". You really don't understand why it could be construed hurtful as taking this stance, and I wasn't going to get into it with you as I know you have just had a baby, and didn't want to upset you. But you started this thread, and you have been quite forceful and firm in your opinions so I am going to tell you my feelings, albeit in a nice way Its terribly judgmental to sit on a ward, nursing your baby, and looking at others and assessing what they are doing. Don't say you weren't judging them, because in order to feel 'shocked' you must have had a negative reaction to what you saw, it stands to reason. There are some parts of 'womankind' that make me really sad, and Mumsnet frequently shows the very best and the very worst sides of women, and one of the worst is how judgemental we can all be of each other. I would like to think that on probably the biggest day of her life, the woman sitting next to you on the ward, or wherever she was, had the right to expect a little kindness and empathy from you as at the end of the day, her choices only affect her and her family, not yours. I fully appreciate that your posts on this subject are open, engaging and insightful, and certainly don't need duster to quote any more of them to assist people in understanding your points, I just find your attitude to it a bit precious, although am not saying you aren't entitled to how you felt of course.

Message withdrawn

LB when I was at my wits end and desperate (with DS) I was lucky enough to have a HV who was also a bf expert and calmed me down. "Don't worry - he's not starving - he had a feed at six this morning - it's OK - you're doing fine - it takes time to establish bf - and it's what you want to do, so let's make sure you can do it" etc. etc.

Every other medical expert I met, encouraged my hysteria and directed me towards the formula. That's not humane, that's crap training!

But Caligula, there are lots of scenarios where there has been no milk given at all, and babies really do need something. To refuse to provide formula in hospital seems very harsh and also pointless, because mothers can simply bring it in themselves. Unless we really arguing that there should be no formula full stop! But I'm sure we're not

I quoted Misdee for two reasons. Firstly for all those who had just come to the thread, and weren't likely to read it all through, who may have thought from your post that Misdee was making an anti-bottlefeeding stance. Secondly, it was to you specifically, as from the tone of your post, I thought you may have misunderstood Misdee's position. Clearly you hadn't, so I apologise if you took my post in a way it most certainly not intended.
It's interesting how we both interpreted some of the posts on here so very differently.
FWIW I would support any mum in her feeding choice. I have neither negative or positive feeling towards either method, and, for my part, am (dare I say it!) shocked at the strength of feeling breast vs bottle creates.

That's where expertise comes in - a good lactation consultant will know when to panic and get some formula down that infant immediately and bugger the bf, and when to say, no hang on in there, yes it's scary but if you want to bf I'm going to do my damndest to help you. And unfortunately, there just aren't enough of people with real expertise around. Even on the place where I personally would have expected to find some - the maternity ward!

I agree about hospitals providing formula though - wouldn't make much difference.

Babies born at term and healthy need no milk for 24 hours. Even then it would be colostrum not thick, hard to digest formula on a little tummy.Whilst I accept we all have a choice, others choices do impact on us all - the hundreds of millions of pounds it costs the NHS annually to treat the problems caused by artificial feeding for instance.
I find it sad that a baby is formula fed on many levels. Sad if the mother wished to breastfeed but was unable to through lack of support or knowledge and sad if a woman doesn't want to because I feel that it is quite unnatural to dislike our bodies so much that we would rather give a baby a rubber teat of artificial stuff than our own milk from our own bodies.

duster, your post just made me laugh! peace be with you x

earthmama, I just know I'm going to regret asking this, but how does artificial feeding cost the NHS hundreds of millions of pounds dealing with the problems it causes?

EM - "the hundreds of millions of pounds it costs the NHS annually to treat the problems caused by artificial feeding for instance."

WHAT? I don't think I know anybody that's had problems with 'artificial' feeding as you put it (and tbh that's rather an offensive term) and I very much doubt that the NHS spends 'hundreds of millions of pounds' treating any problems! What kind of problems are you thinking of?!

oh thank god, I thought it was just me not knowing what on earth EM was talking about!

Message withdrawn

Message withdrawn

Google it. Health problems caused by formula feeding (sorry if you find the term artificial offensive but that is simply what it is - artificial) costs millions. Gastro problems, allergies, lower immunity, hearing and grommit problems.
Surely you are aware of the health risks of formula as opposed to breastmilk??

Another cost is folk getting heated on mumsnet and getting RSI from all the typing!!

Here we go again.

...which applies to the bottlers and the breasters alike, I should add.

EM, who is quoting the statistics though? Not the La Leche League by any chance?

Nooooo..............the NHS!!