Food intolerance and yeast - followup for Ninja's post re thrush

[NicknameAlreadyTaken]

In this topic www.mumsnet.com/Talk/1364/592669
Ninja posted a long list of foods to be avoided when suffering from thrush.

My baby seems to react whenever I eat things similar to those on the list:

• dairy (although haven't tried eating cottage cheese and yogurt only, was eating them together with cheese, sour cream, etc),
• bread, cereals, oatcakes, etc, all that contains gluten (although i'm currently eating gluten-free bread some of which does contain yeast),
• fruit (both fresh and dried),
• sweeet-tasting vegetables like corn, carrots, etc
• things that contains sugar (although things like ham which only contain small amounts of dextrose seem to be fine)
• wine, champagne, beer, etc
• possibly fish (i was eating a lot of smoked fish when my baby had a reaction)
• possibly nuts
• possibly beef
• possibly soya Reaction is mostly GI one - excessive possetting, lots of gas and related pains, watery poo, nappy rash, getting irritable, fussy, etc

Does anyone know if this is just a coincidence? Or can it be something like yeast intolerance in my baby or in me?

My GP and pediatrician prefer to ignore the food intolerance thing altogether, so all I could do was eliminate all these foods from my diet, but from time to time i still get a reaction in my baby when i eat a new food or try re-introducing something i eliminated.

And is it worth going to an allergy clinic, will they be able to say which foods me or my baby are intolerant to?

Please do not take offense but I would be very worried for you if you tried to cut out all of the above foods from your diet.

Posseting/passing wind - both up and down the way - are normal in young babies and can happen whatever mum eats. How old is your baby? It can take 2-3 or even 4 months for the babies bowel to adjust to having to digest things having previously only been feed via your blood inside you.

I am not familiar with yeast intolerance, I always thought it was a matter of yeast "overgrowth" for which there is no evidence.

Do you have allergies? Then it would certainly be wise to exclusively BF your baby to 26 weeks. Food intolerances are really an entirely different kettle of fish. There is no evidence that a baby is affected by mums diet unless a radical change is made ie asian babies cope fine with their mums eating spicy curries however a baby not used to mum having the same spices in her diet may become upset if they are introduced.

Watch out, there are lots of people/sites in RL who will create an illness over normal variations in our biology in an attempt to sell you something.

Again, I do not mean to be controversial. I am afraid you have touched on a bit of a sore subject for me. Sorry, I am off my soap box now.

Mummyfor3, thanks for your reply!
I'm not offended at all as I'm totally new to babies and am indeed taking many things too seriously just because i think it's better to be a bit overcautious than undercautious.

At first i also thought that it's just the way it is supposed to be (especially because everybody around kept saying so, even those who knew nothing about babies themselves and were just thinking stereotypes like "all babies cry, all babies fuss, etc"), but then i started noticing that sometimes my baby feels much better, so started experimenting with excluding/reintroducing foods (she was a week or two short of 3 months old then) and saw a definite link between fruits/sugary foods and my baby's state. So, I excluded those and she got much better but still was not feeling as good as it could be (and by then i knew she could be feeling miles better and be much less fretful and whiny). Then tried excluding dairy and again, she got better, but not that much, although i think it could have been because i kept trying to reintroduce some other foods or trying new foods at the same time), then i excluded gluten (she was around 4 months old) and stopped trying to reintroduce anything for a while and then finally she got to a much more stable state. And since then whenever I tried eating anything from that list, she would get worse.

I admit that it all could have been a coincidence during her early months, because her body could have been getting mature just at the right times to make it look as though she was getting better because of the changes I was making (although i still feel that there were too many an occasion of her getting worse in about half a day after i eat a certain food to say it was a pure coincidence). And it does correspond to what you mentioned as the age when their bowels become mature.
But there were a number of occasions after that as well with cheese, corn and champaigne among the latest.
And now, when she's 7 months old and feeling well most of the time, i can easily see when she becomes unwell and i doubt it can be caused by immaturity of her body anymore (although her body is still immature, i guess it's not immature to that extent).

Although as I said I know nothing about babies and can be wrong about everything.

A month a half ago i tried reintroducing dairy, but got a strong reaction, so had to exclude it again.
I BFed her exclusively up to 6 months, then tried solids, introducing them slowly, one in 3-4 days, and getting same reaction to a number of them.

I don't have any true allergy, just an intolerance to chocolate and oranges, and a reaction to wasp's venom (not sure how strong it is but it required a prompt trip to A&E when I got stung), so doubt I can be called allergic.

But at the end of the day, I don't regret doing all that, even if it was a silly thing to do, because I don't want to think later that she was suffering just because I didn't want to make a change for her.
And now i can't force myself to try eating all those things again just because I don't want her to suffer! That's why I'm looking for a way to either confirm or disproof my fears without a need for her to suffer much again.

And yes, I know that some people can have lucrative motivations prevailing, thanks for reminding me about that!

I will be only glad to have someone disproof my fears! But only if my baby is feeling well.

Do you think it can still be caused by immaturity of her bowel? And what shall I do when she reacts to solids? My GP told me to continue giving her food that caused reaction no matter what, which sounds a bit strange to me, but I don't know about possible reasons behind such advice.

You are clearly a committed and very motivated mother trying to do the best for her child, and there is obviously nothing wrong with that.

I do not think that at this stage her bowel is still that immature etc. How does she react to solids? Consider yourself, I am sure there have been times you have felt more bloated, umcomfortable after a meal than at other times, and the same will happen young children. I may be well off base, but I just get the impression that you worry unduly about quite natural variations in bahaviour and it is a shame if that interfered with your enjoyment of your baby. Also (and at this point I just fess up that I am also a GP in a different life ) in my experience, well-meaning but worried mothers can contribute to rather anxious children. A lot of that is of course also personality and I am not making any personal remarks (how could I, I do not know you), just general observation.

Could you ask for a referral to see a dietician/nutritionist with experience in children to help ease your mind?

I am mother to 3 boys and I am afraid to say they fart like troopers (including DS3 22 weeks, still excl BF) AND are proud of it, disgusting boys!!

I am sure things will settle down the older your DD get. The concern with you cutting out big food groups from your or her diet is simple that you could end up with a less windy baby that is malnourished. Obviously cutting out things with low nutritional value such as sugar etc is not an issue.

The more I think about it get nutritional advice from somebody who is not trying to sell you anything.

As a long term sufferer of thrush/candida, I clicked on this thread before I realised it was about breast feeding! But this sentence caught my eye, from Mummyfor3:

"I am not familiar with yeast intolerance, I always thought it was a matter of yeast "overgrowth" for which there is no evidence."

I don't know why you would say that there is no evidence for this, it was picked up by the hospital when I went for a smear test!

And re asian ladies being able to eat spicy food when breastfeeding, my own GP, who is Indian, told me specifically not to eat spicy food and breast feed, when I had an emergency call out from her. DS1 was in such pain after I ate a curry. She told me that she always avoided spicy foods when she was breastfeeding.

Those of us who have suffered from thrush or colicky babies (wonder if there's a link there as well?) no only too well the relationship between foods and the symptoms.

Because, of course there is thrush and very difficult to get rid of chronic and recurring thrush!! I would never deny that, and there is a place for a fairly strict carbohydrate avoidance diet to help clear very treatment resistent thrush.

I suppose what gets my goat is when any number of symptoms get blamed on nebulous "thrush overgrowth" when the yeast that couses thrush is a common skin commensal that usually lives WITH us and does us no harm. And usually this is given as a diagnosis with the "offer" of "treatment" which invariably cost a lot of money - anyway rant over.

Having survived colicky baby1 and just getting past the worst of it with baby3, we will just have to agree that all babies and mothers are different and I would never argue against anything that works for the individual family.

It is interesting what you say about your (asian) dr. I have some friends who simply continued eating what they ate in pregnancy and their babies were find with mum's spicy diet, again I suppose it all depends, doesn't it?

And, of course, I meant know not 'no' !

I agree with you about quackery/the profit motive, but also point out that thrush happens when the yeast becomes out of balance - i.e. there is too much of it.

oops, conversation got a swing to thrush, i knew it would be so

getting back to the original matter...
Mummyfor3, my DD reacts to some solids in a same way she reacts to food i eat - by becoming gassy (she's not gassy at other times) and frequently waking up at night crying, by becoming more irritable and fretful at daytime.
I guess it all can be a coincidence again, as you say, we all sometimes feel bloated and gassy, besides she often seems to be teething though doesn't have any teeth yet, which can also be causing such behaviour and night waking.

And thanks for your advice re a referral to dietician. I think that might work if I ask for that to "ease my mind" as drs seem to perceive me as overanxious too. although it's not true (even if you got the same impression ), i'm just taking some things too seriously and besides, i'm just too used to finding logic and structure in everything due to the nature of my work.

I don't know whether my state contributed to that or not, but my DD is pretty high-strung, clingy, easily excitable, quickly gets bored by toys, needs a lot of attention and comforting and is always on the move.
Again, I thought that could have been caused by her constantly feeling uncomfortable, but paediatrician we were referred to said it's just the way she is.
It's all so difficult when everything is so uncertain with your babies and you never know for sure what's going on inside them.

Thanks again for your help!

Oh, yes, and another part of her reaction is posseting. Earlier it would be loads and loads - several tablespoonfulls at a time, very frequeently and at arbitrary times in relation to feeds. Besdides, it was different to posseting right after the feed when a bit of fresh milk is coming out with an air bubble. It would on the contrary come out without any air and as if ejected, looking more like vomiting rather than posseting. And it would be really excessive, so that we had to change her clothes 2-3 times a day because they were getting absolutely moist.
After she started sitting up it all diminished, so now when she's well, she won't be bringing up anything at all, but when she has a reaction to some food she will bring up a tablespoon or two several times a day.
One more thing is runny nose, but this can again be related to teething.