breastfeeding - it's a BIG issue....

[wavy]

i am a mum of 2 - still breasefeeding youngest. I have been thinking about breastfeeding a lot and how it is a PROPER issue for women and yet nobody seems to take it that seriously. It totally affects every mothers life - wheather they breast or bottle - and it is politcal and it is emotional.
As other mums do you think it is worth trying to write some breastfeeding stories so people know the range of experiences we go through and what influences (and how diverse those influences are) on how we decide to feed our kids. None of my friends have got a creche at work where they will let you pop down and feed. My work does not even have a creche. Have any mumsnet mums come across a breastfeeding friendly creche. And what do you think of the idea of taking this issue serioulsy. I would love to hear any thoughts and any stories about how and why you did or did not breastfeed or mixed and matched. I stopped breastfeeding ds at 3 months (my Mumsnet nickname was LAST - before I changed computers) but am still currently feeding 13mth old ds. Would love to hear what anybody thinks and what they have been through. THANKS

Hmmmm. Well, I've read through & whilst I hate to rain on anyone's parade, I am one of the other 'unusual' group: those that cannot, despite trying very hard, breastfeed successfully. Ds1 was in intensive/special care for a total of 2.5 wks after birth & I expressed, then b/fed him but could never produce enough. He would scream & scream with hunger constantly (yes it was hunger, as as soon as he was given a bottle of formula he shut up). I was in excruciating pain with cracked nipples so I started expressing again. It would take me up to an hour to express a decent amount, then I would feed him. I couldn't go out because I had to be able to express around the same time as feeding him. (& if b/feeding in public is considered a no-no, how the hell can one express in public?!). I eventually got him back on the breast but my flow was so weak & slow it would take TWO HOURS to give him a feed. Yup, that's 2 hrs out of every 3 spent feeding. Factor in nappy changing etc & I still could never go anywhere. I was stuck on the sofa with a baby at my breast for hour after hour. I became very isolated & depressed & felt a complete failure as all around me women like you were (to me) ostentatiously whapping their boobs out & feeding in 10 minutes flat. I also felt that women who had no problems breasfeeding never really believed me when I said i found it so difficult, as after all, the Breastfeeding Mafia has it that Every Woman Can Breastfeed!! I struggled on until ds1 was 3.5 mths, & even then he was being mixed-fed by that stage as my supply was never enough.

When I had ds2 (8 mths ago) I was determined to give it another go. After all, this time there was no stint in ICU & the baby came straight home with me. I gave up after 4 days, when the baby puked up the blood he'd just sucked from my nipplple. I was in agony. I'd also just spent an hour expressing 1 oz of milk - that was an hour I could have spent sleeping or just being with my baby. I didn't want to risk the depression again so I thought "Right, that is it. He's having a bottle". It wasn't a decision made without an immense amount of guilt though, & I still feel a pang when I see or read about breastfeeding. I always think that perhaps I could have tried harder (although I know deep down I couldn't have).

Someone mentioned about women in other cultures successfully b/feeding even when there isn't enough food. I don't think food is the issue. In those cultures new mothers are often given 40 or so days to recover & are supported by a large female network. Had I been able to lie abed for 2 weeks with nothing to think about but feeding my baby, I just might have been able to succeed. As it was, I was constantly on the go, & I think it's the same for many women in the western world. We're chucked out of hospital after a few hours & once at home we feel obliged to still do everything - oh, & we're expected to be back in our 'skinny jeans' after 48 hours!

Sorry that this is such a long post, but it's something I feel very strongly about.

scampa, I was very moved by your post.....breastfeeding is not easy, or even possible, for a whole bunch of women, and you describe the lack of support and the pressures and necessity to do other things very well.

The really, really hard start you had with your first baby would have made bf difficult for anyone, and often in these situations it can be impossible to keep up with the demands of the baby - too often, mothers of babies in SCBU/NICU are not helped to get bf underway immediately....it's rare for them to be supported to express 8 times a day from day one or two, and while some women can start off expressing later and less often, for others, this early production priming turns out to be crucial.

The cracked nipples you had with both your babies were almost certainly caused by the baby not getting well-positioned, and compressing the nipple against the hard palate. This quickly damages the skin. It needs very skilled help to overcome this latch problem - sadly not available to most women in pain with bf.

Please don't use the term Breasfeeding Mafia - a lot of us find it offensive, if using it you mean people like me who volunteer support women who want to breastfeed (see many discussions on mumsnet about the use of this term!). I don't know anyone who knows about breastfeeding and the huge struggle many women have to do it even for a short time who thinks 'every woman can breastfeed' - but I do believe every woman deserves the right help and information to do it, if she wants to, and if more of them had the right help and info, they would indeed have enough milk and be able to feed their babies without pain.

Thanks for sharing the story.

Sorry TIktok, I didn't mean to cause offence. I'm sure you & lots of others give immense support to many people. It's just that that's the way it can feel sometimes! Ds1 had chickenpox when ds2 was only a few weeks old & naturally I was worried the baby would get it. EVERYone - professionals & laypeople alike - blithely said, "Oh don't worry, he'll have immunity from your milk". The air of disapproval when I (genuinely shamefully) confessed I wasn't b/feeding could have been cut with a knife... (although I was probably projecting my own feelings of failure a lot of the time).

Anyway, apologies again as I really didn't mean to offend.

It's ok, scampa

I know very well that when someone is very hurt and upset and disappointed, they can resent a whole lot of things/people that remind them of whatever they are sad about. Human nature

There is often too much assuming going on among HPs - just as they assumed you were breastfeeding, plenty of people get irritated when it is assumed they are not ('add this to the baby's bottle' or 'does he take his full 6 ounces of feed?'). But it is worse to be sad and shameful (even though in your head you know you do not need to be ashamed!!) than merely irritated....I say this just to show you that there is too much assumption and not enough listening!

Me again...
I also wanted to take up what you said about support for expressing mums when their babies are in ICU/SCBU. Once it was more or less certain that ds1 was going to live, they suggested I express milk (this was about 48 hrs after the birth). I then had to nag them a bit to show me where the machine was (I was rooming on the neo-natal ward). They showed me & then I was pretty much left to my own devices. I'm not criticising the ICU staff - they were wonderful, & surely it's not their job to help me express milk, but in such a large, prestigious hospital (UCH in London) shouldn't there be a dedicated staff member for this? What if (as is likely in such an area) you don't speak english very well? Even I felt awkward hassling very busy nurses for information & I am an articulate, middle-class Englishwoman. Does anyone else have experience of this?

scampa, was really moved by your post. I think you are right about support. It truly is a shame that we don't have the type of maternal support (mums, aunties, grandmothers; all gathering in a proper support structure for new mothers in the family) that some cultures do.

It does seem like hospitals should be more enthused about helping you express, particularly for a pre-term baby.

I have to admit that I was fortunate in having few problems feeding. Blocked ducts was never a concern, as both breasts were always emptied at the same time. Plus I just never experienced any other problems, aside from sore nipples for the first 4 weeks as they got used to constant use. At one point I remember one did crack and bleed a bit but it did stop hurting after a day or so - plus I was about five months into feeding. If it had happened five days into feeding I probably wouldn't have wanted to carry on.

Wavy, you've got a good idea; I would love to write a b/f story... how should we go about it?

I think it's a really good idea to collect together stories from mums who have breastfed, there are tons of books about how to breastfeed available but a book of personal experiences, including the reasons people breastfed, the problems they had and where they got support from would be really useful. Mums on breastfeeding, just a load of personal accounts from people who have actually done it. I have no idea how we would go about it though?

scampa, I can understand that with a baby whose life is in danger, staff have their attention elsewhere....which is why a breastfeeding person, uninvolved in the care of the baby, needs to be charged with the job of helping mothers get bf underway, just as you say....48 hours afterwards is really very late, and while some women may be just fine and will build up a good milk supply, for others, that slow start makes a real difference. Technique for expressing needs to be taught, and even at that late stage, if you'd got going 6-8 times in 24 hours, this would have overcome some of the slow start. Did anyone tell you how important it was to express as freq as this?

None of this is new stuff, it's well-known, and UCH, you are right, should blinkin' well know it. How about writing to them and saying what you have said here?

Weeelllll..... it was 3.5 yrs ago & I feel that if I did that then it would imply criticism of the ICU staff, who were fantastic & absolutely dedicated throughout very long shifts (even now whenever people casually put down the NHS I staunchly defend it!) Having said that, I do think it is a service badly needed if the government / NHS is to be seen to be paying more than lip-service to promoting b/feeding.

Message withdrawn

I am just trying to stop breastfeeding my 9 month old son and that is mainly as he keeps biting me! It was not really through choice that i fed him this long, he refused a bottle from 6 weeks and has never had one {went straight onto a feeding cup} I could not understand what made him so unwilling to take a bottle from so young, i have two older children and stopped feeding them at around 8 weeks with no trouble at all so this was a bit of a problem! We tried everything, everybody i spoke to had a different theory or make of bottle to try, i think i single handedly kept boots open i was buying so many different bottles! In the end he just decided one day that he would have a cup, after hours of crying {from myself, husband and son} thinking i was going to be breast feeding forever, he just got up one day and decided he would have the cup. We are now trying to stop night feeds as he has never taken the cup in the night and i can no longer cope with the 6 little teeth that are eating me every night. I just thought i would tell my story as it might give a little bit of hope to anyone that has a child as stubborn as mine. It will work in the end and to anyone that needs it, goodluck.

I think that is a very valid point scampadoodle. Women are encouraged to breastfeed but also expected to do all the other things as well. I think it is because feeding the baby is put on a par with bottle feeding. It is quick to make up a bottle and anyone can do it. Compared to that breastfeeding can be terribly time consuming at the beginning. In other societies extended family can take over the other jobs and just leave mum to get on with breastfeeding. I think therefore that b/feeding education should be pushed not just at mums but at Dads as well at other family members so that mums aren't left to do it all.

Scampa, I too was moved by your story and could really relate to your feelings "I always think that perhaps I could have tried harder (although I know deep down I couldn't have)" because this is pretty much how I felt when I gave up feeding ds1 at two weeks. I didn't want to give up, I just couldn't face putting him to the breast again - which I suppose means I did want to give up in the end. But I didn't want to, I just had to because I couldn't bear to continue, if you see what I mean.
Nearly five years on, having successfully fed dc2 and dc3, I think I've finally got over it! And I'm only half joking.

Ages ago I read a book called The Politics of Breastfeeding by Gabrielle Palmer. Very good - would recommend it. I remember being surprised at a picture of a 5 year old boy standing up and having a breastfeed from his mother on the way home from school. It was in Africa but I know most people in our society would think this was horrible/unnatural/even sexual (I have heard that said before). My ds is 5 and a half and I think he has stopped b/f - its been very gradual going from one a week down to once a month and its been about a month now since the last time. He does have autism and I am sure that this accounts for his willingness to still do it but I could just be linking the two together. I am amazed its gone on this long but apart from finding it tiresome I've never felt embarrased or uncomfortable with it. Obviously these latter stages have been more to do with comfort as he's not had enough to have much immunological protection I would have thought. Have felt it was just like a special hug. The last time he was very upset and it was bedtime and it calmed him down so quickly. It's been a useful 'tool' over the years.

Still b/feeding dd who is 2.10 and am pg with no 3 baby. Never felt it was exhausting or draining (but can be irritating at times). Fed dd exclusively till she was 17lbs and it did help me to lose weight but otherwise hardly noticed.

I know I sound like an 'earth mother' and am sure have been called that here but am just recounting my experiences. I have however learned from MN that some people despite trying still hate b/feeding and yet still do it and I am sure that this is the case in any society.

BTW my experience with my first was very difficult but got easy after 8 weeks and with my 2nd was very easy from the start.

Someone also said that extended b/feeding made your child clingy. I wish that were the case, particularly with dd who spends most of her time running away from me! She has plenty of confidence, far too much of it in fact.

Will stop rambling now....

Haven't had time to read everyone's contribution... but here's my story..

I'm bf my dd now 15 months. I have to say that at my hospital, it was expected that I would bf - as soon as she was born she was put on straight away, and all I knew was 'breast was best'. To be honest, I hadn't really considered what I was going to do whilst pg, and just went along with the breast is best thing.

Then I tried feeding her, and it hit me how hard bfeeding actually is. It was very sore, my boobs really hurt... and having read the books that all said it should not hurt - I became convinced I was doing something wrong.. I got the whole world and his dog to have a look at my breasts to see if the latch was right... everyone said it was, so I couldn't understand why it hurt so much!

When I was discharged, I had the most amazing midwife, who just kept saying it gets easier, persevere etc, and sure enough she was right.. it stopped hurting and I began to relax into it. I think her best advice was to me, "if you want to give up, then i'll support you in that, but make teh decision in the cold light of day, not at 3 am when you may regret it!" There were many 3am ers, but I always remembered what she said and she was right, it was always easier in the morning! I was so close to giving up so many times, as it hurt so much, but she kept me going and now, 15 months on we're still going strong!

My issue has been lack of discussion about when to give up. I had just assumed I'd stop at 6 months beacuse that's the age you stop at.. it was only because of my friend who is heavily into AP who kept saying she'd go for at least a year, that made me question when and why I'd give up. I eventually decided I'd give up when dd decided she want to, and we're still waiting for that.

My HV has been very supportive too, she told me not to give up until DD wanted to, that I shouldn't feel pressured into giving up etc..

So I can't say I've had any negative feedback from professionals. All my friends bf until their babies were at least 4 months (There's 6 of us in our group - it was just the 'done' thing!) Now a days, I'm sure some family don't approve, but they daren't say anything, they know how bulshy I am and how I'd just ram the facts about how much bfeeding is that cow / formula milk back at them, so i don't think they'd dare! But I do sense they can be a bit disapproving at times though!!!

So here I am 15 months later, transformed from a bfeeding novice to a fully fledged fan, all thanks to the NHS!!

I just wanted to add my vote for the book "The Politics of Breastfeeding". It is a fabulous book and I think should be required reading for all pregnant women. I don't see how anyone that reads that book can ever look at the whole feeding issue the same again. I am also reading "Milk Money and Madness" right now which has a similar theme.

Interesting to see this post today - a I've JUST stopped feeding my 21 month old today with mixed feelings.

She was always a good feeder, but somewhere in the middle of it we battled through 4 months of extremely painful thrush and lots of teeth (I really do still have the scars to show for it). I was too stubborn to stop at the tiem, although at 9 months old it wouldn't have been a problem for her, but I didn't want to end on a down She came out the other side so keen on feeding and has remained so. She would feed all day and night if she could, and that why I've had to stop. I would have carried on if she were content with a morning and night feed. It was the constant demanding if she was tired/hungry/hurt/just in a bad mood! It also meant sometimes she could be very clingy with me and wouldn't even suffer her father.

Saying all that I really thought I would be on Mumsnet asking how long the screaming went on but having not fed her this morning (for the 1st morning ever) she hasn't even asked tonight - I don't know whether to be glad or sad!!

Sorry you were asking for stories and it's at the front of my mind at the moment.

As for being political, I have to say that I can't understand why anyone wouldn't give it a go, but I'm sure the culture you're brought up in makes a huge difference. Mind when I'm giving in to my daughters chocolate cravings I sometimes wonder if I should feel so holy

I've had some odd b/f experiences. DS1 could put the nipple in his mouth but wouldn't suck. When the midwives checked him, they just saw a baby 'latched on' and thought everything was OK and I was too green to know. When we got home from hospital, the community midwife weighed him and said 'Oh no. Oh no no no. You've got 24 hours to get some milk into him otherwise it's back to hspital and onto a drip.' The poor little man had been starving for the best part of a week and had 'given up and gone to sleep', in her words. It was a terrifying experience, but we managed to cup feed him a mixture of breast and formula and he turned a corner. The lack of stimulation and bits of formula combined resulted in my milk levels dropping way down, and I was too green back then to know how to build them back up. Still, we struggled on mixed feeding to 8 months. DS2 was a different story. He sucked OK from day one, but the latch was poor and nothing anyone tried to do improved it. So I had cracks and blood and excruciating pain for about 12 weeks, but at least I was making enough milk this time! I had to grit my teeth and moan in pain with every feed and should probably have given up if I had any sense, but I just couldn't. I had the milk, so I had to give it to him. At about 11/12 weeks, the pain became so intense that I shouted out into the empty room that I couldn't take it any more and the following feed, it eased a bit. Gradually, over the next few days, b/feeding became painless - the pain disappeared inexplicably. He's 2 1/2 now and still feeding, albeit just a couple of times a day. I have one friend who fed hers to 3 years old, but everyone else I know stopped at 3-9 months and finds my extended feeding quite distastful. We have stopped doing it in front of anyone now, so I guess that's quite an issue in some circles. I do wonder where it will end though, as he shows no signs of wanting to stop.
Whoops, sorry this is long. I don't post for 6 months, then I do a marathon.............