bf - the norwegian perspective

[une]

Have been reading some of the different conversations on bf, and now I feel that it is time to tell how it is in bf-utopia
(and just so I have said this too: Just because we are good on this bf thing doesn't meen that we are the country of perfect kids and mums,- Norway plummeted on the Piza-qustionare this year again!)

For starters: Yes it is true that 98% of norwegian moms bf until we start the babies on solids between 4 and 6 months. Here bf is reagrded as the natural thing to do, and that there is a "choise" is close to impossible to grasp. The small persentage that doesn't bf are in general prohibited from it, due to baby beeing premature or other physical reasons.

I think maby the reason for the all over agreeement that bf is what we do, is because we have a wery standarised gowerment-controlled healthsystem, so that all doctors, midwives and every other person working with new mothers have the same approach. This means that we talk about bf already when pregnant at our monthly check-ups, and that we get proper guidance and help already at the hospital after giving birth. Every hospital in Norway also hand out a information-pamflet on bf to every mother.

Beacuse of all the information and focus on bf, "every mother" knows that bf is not just best for nutrition, but also is the best way to get back in shape after giving birth, keeping your baby healthy, bonding with your baby and naturally becomming mum - best person in the whole of babys world (this is of course beacuse of the wonderfull smell of breastmilk that one carries around)

Pruners, I would love to spend a very long time exploring the whole issue - I found some fascinating stuff about breastfeeding being anti-feminist a while back.

It's on my to do list...

i'm sorry but can you have a look at this please

sfxmum, I remember my first HV (who was lovely and then retired) saying I was a natural with DS1 when he was 10 days old (I was anything but, honestly!) and it gave me such a boost. And the midwife who saw me when he was 2 days old saying that all they need is breastmilk, cuddles and love (and a bit of daylight - he was jaundicey!) and I was doing a lovely job of providing all that. I never saw her again either, just ones who said things about only offering one breast per feed because that was what "they" recommended now (which is crazy talk).

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PMSL at "this is about being American" - two nations separated by a common language, I reckon.

about the feminist argument I would like to see it revived and discussed more publicly.

it worries me that so may young girls see it as being extremely negative and equate it with hating men etc or the favourite 'I am not a lesbian' (?!)

it seems to me that the initial rhetoric was necessary because a revolution was needed
the fact that women need to reclaim their bodies is still important but maybe in a different area.

motherhood can be empowering when you are in charge of your fertility but I think the way the way motherhood and in fact parenthood generally, is seen in society really needs major debate

and yes some encouraging comments early on do wonders for a new mum

I think many people assume that the baby's needs and the mother's needs are always in conflict and that therefore anything good for babies must necessarily be bad for women.

What's bad for women though is not being supported to meet their children's needs. Babies' needs are intense and it is hard to meet them if you don't have support. Getting support (help around the house, decent paid maternity leave, rights to express milk at work) means going up against a very unsympathetic culture and powerful institutions, and the path of least resistance is to make the baby compromise instead. Obviously no one can blame individuals mums for doing so; however it does make me cross when I read commentators who claim that this is a feminist solution.

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I want to move to Norway!

What a great post une - really very interesting reading - I've had so many people tell me that "they wanted to bf but couldn't", yet look what Norway have achieved with the right level of education and support!
I am aware I smell of bf btw and I do get a bit embarrassed about it... but not enough to stop!
Funnily, enough I took my ds to see some friends who I went to uni with - none of them have kids, when ds was 9 weeks old. The only friend who wasn't at all fazed at my bfing was a German girl who was happily chatting to me and cooing over ds while I was feeding him, and commenting about how great it was I was bfing I think it is because Germans generally have a lot less hang ups about their bodies - I remember going with her and some other girls to the Sheffield 1877 Spa and she casually remarked that growing up back home, family attendance at spas was a regular thing and everyone was naked - she was very puzzled about British attitudes to the human form.

What a great thread. It's good to read some informed and thoughtful debate that addresses how things are and could be different.

I agree completely with drama. I think in the UK one of the factors is the obsession with work (I imagine it is worse in the US). I say this as someone who works. I work in a very 'supportive' environment (university, progressive HR on the whole, understanding and occasionally feminist colleagues). Women here can ask for space to express and store milk and it is not a big deal; there is an onsite nursery so women can go over and feed their babies during the day. Yet the culture of work and babies don't mix is still entrenched. When I discussed managing work/life balance with a colleague (a father) his basic position was 'having children is a choice: tough shit if you can't handle it ie work'.

This was very depressing.

For women (feminists) I think the battle to be won now (and will have positive impacts on BF rates and good provision of childcare etc) is the notion that having children is a social good and not just a matter of individual choice (and indeed responsibility when things go wrong - either with the children going off the rails, or parents struggling to juggle).

There are massive 'ooh look boobies' cultural messages still to be overcome but I think that is secondary to the notion that meeting babies' needs is not only meeting parents' needs but in fact meeting society's needs.

But so many people hate that idea, don't they? On MN as much as anywhere else.

That's probably why Scandinavian experiences are so different: a completely different notion of the social good.

WillSelf, you are so right about the social good. Here children are seen as the equivalent of their parents' hobby, or perhaps an exotic pet, rather than members of society.

I think the the discussion needs to be broaden, I feel very uncomfortable when women who do not want children are seen as abnormal, this seldom applies to men mind ( and we shall skip over the whole sexual behaviour bit), it is a valid choice and people who take time t consider their choices certainly have my respect.

but it is odd when children are seen as an inconvenience, a problem to be solved it is very sad indeed

An interesting discussion! I live in Denmark (am English) and moved here way before I ever thought about having children. When I became pg the first time, the thought of there being a choice about whether to ff or bf never crossed my mind - I think the general attitude (from my experience) is that you bf and if that doesn't work out, then fine, you give formula and nobody really bats an eyelid either way. Then I bumped into a UK parenting website (not mn) and was amazed at the controversy over ff / bf (and I generally stay away from those debates, sorry if I inadvertently upset or offend anyone).

Mummyfor3: when I gave birth to dd, I had a lot of problems bf at the start and dd gave herself a fever on about the 2nd day (I think due to her not getting anything from me, I can't remember exactly, I was a bit shellshocked about everything ). They gave her a sip of cooled boiled water, and that didn't stop her screaming, so then they gave her a tiny amount of formula and she managed to sleep, I managed to rest and her temperature eventually came down (I had a tough following couple of weeks but did succeed and ended up bf her for over a year in the end ) so they had formula at least at the hospital I was in!

Perhaps this is overgeneralising, but it is definitely my experience that Scandinavian mums are pretty relaxed and see ml as a chance to enjoy being with their baby and having coffee and cake with other mums etc. Of course it helps that ml is generally about a year - having said that, I know of one mum who went back to work (for a prestigious company) after 4 mnths, her dh stayed at home and brought their ds to the office at regular intervals where she bf him at her desk

ps, agree wrt to openness about their bodies being a natural/normal thing etc, but just to add, I also find Scandinavians very, very practical - wonder of this could have a bearing?! (she says, slightly tongue-in-cheek )

wonder if not of

UpSinceCrapOClock: congrats on inspired nickname, don't I know the feeling.

Tiktok: good to know that there are no incentives for hospitals to offer one brand of formula over the other - true, where I delivered there were several.

I personally distrust statements that contain "never" or "always" and I know my own path to BFing has not been easy or always successful. In my experience RL face to face help has been essential although I did have to make my own mistakes as well; so experience does help .

I am German and I agree with above observations that maybe the attitudes to the human body are less tense in some other countries as compared to Britain (my brother walked into communal sauna at university in Britain swimming pool in the duff and was almost kicked out of uni/stoned/charge . Having said that, a friend told me that although new mums are "expected" to BF in Germany for the first 6/12, people will make comments about feeding an older baby/toddler. I have been away for so long, I really would not know.

It is interesting that BFing/reducing unwanted or teenage pregnancies/increasing birth rate all seems to happen in countries with a more liberal approach to sex education/contraception etc etc.
Sorry, I do not mean to offend anyone, just an observation .

Sorry 'bout the late reply, life (baby) has a tendency to keep me from spending less and less time on the web

Was a bit nervous when I wrote the post, as the BF vs FF issue is remarkably aggrevating in britain it seems..

As I wrote my bachelors-degree on the issues and reasons for migrant muslim-girls lack of participation in sports in Norway, I can actually confirm that we have a more "animal-like" view on our bodies, and that we are not (for lack of a better word) affraid to juse it and to connect to it. Of course, there are women who do have body-issues and who struggle with not only the bf-issue but of giving birth in the first place. The difference is maby that here MVs "raise the alarm", and we have public discussions on the increasing amount of mothers who choose c-section beacuse they are too afraid of giving birth. So it's not that we don't have the same issues as Britain, but that it is regarded by the medical professions that not adressing them would be taking a step back.

And the bit about smelling of milk. My husband just loves the way I smell theese days; my perfume mixed with the smell of our little girl (I guess thats breastmilk mixed with poo and wommit ) Brittish men deserve to feel that smell, and british women deserve to be proud of smelling like that.

Btw Gro Nylanders book "Becoming a mother" is close to the bible for every new mother in Norway, and has a lot of information and tips for breastfeeding. Couldn't figure out how to put in the link..