Still being subjected to the cow and gate ad.

[LookingForwardToSummer]

Grrrrr. It's so annoying! Is there nothing we can do?

I have a few friends who did not try breastfeeding.
One comes from a family where they give their babies drinks of tea. Breastfeeding is not something that was done in their family, and it "never did any of you lot any harm"
Another said she just did not want to breastfeed.
Another had a terrible pregnancy, and horrific birth, and did not feel up to breastfeeding.

Not one of them have ever said to me "well, formula is as good as breastfeeding, look at them laughing babies in that advert".

Drinks of tea? instead of milk? Surely not? And why is b/feeding Just Not Done in that family?

None of them have ever breastfed (I know four generations of that family).

They work on the consensus that there is nothing wrong with their kids, and they were ff.

Yes, tea. Tea bag, hot water, sugar, milk.
Gravey with dinner.

Not instead of milk, but instead of one or two feeds. So instead of four lots of milk, they'd do two milk, two tea iyswim

I bet there is plenty wrong with their children. I strongly suspect that they suffer the detriment of a lessened IQ in that family

Yes, that is a cheap shot but hot tea with sugar ffs? They are a dentists, nay, a denture maker's dream arent they?

I know people who have tried feeding and fallen at the first hurdle, stopped at six weeks, stopped at six months, and those who have never tried at all.
I b/fed until DD was 18 months old, but I'm in the minority.

The tea thing still makes me go "eeeek". And the gravey. All I could whimper was "but the SALT!!!"

Elf, please try to answer the question at the heart of this issue: is it right that formula should be marketed unethically? Who does it help to have unethical marketing? Your friend who was unable to breastfeed? The friend who gave her babies tea?

"If formula becomes something that is swept under the carpet, (God forbid it can be in the presence of the sucessful breastfeeding mothers),"

Is that what you understand this issue to be about ElfontheShelf? Breastfeeding mothers being offended by the sight of formula milk? Really?!

Saw the ad again today and something puzzles me.

You're not meant to give anything other than breastmilk or formula as a main drink for the first 12 months of a baby's life.

Follow-on formula advertises itself as part of a mixed diet from six months.

But then it says that it's not intended to replace breastmilk.

What's it for then?

hunker, I suppose they mean it is additional to the breastfeeding, seein as how us bf'ing types probly can't keep up with demand of a growing 6m+ baby, cos we don't produce more milk on demand, do we? [where's the sarcastic smiley?]

And no, this was not in any way meant to be a dig of any kind to anyone who hasn't been able to keep bf'ing or who has needed to supplement with formula. It was a reply. I am a lucky person to be able to keep up with DS's demands, I know that.

hunker (hello ), I think what they mean (are trying to imply) is that breastmilk is that stuff you give until 6 months and not a day longer and no, noooo, we're not trying to replace it, no we are not

I could say a lot about this, but most of it has been said very eloquently by others already.

I do understand what they're trying to say, but it seems that the basic "it's not to replace breastmilk" is utterly flawed. It patently IS to replace breastmilk or there'd be no point it existing. It's not to replace chocolate cake or cloud vapour.

(Hello, Bero - DS2 loves Dolly Dodo - he tucked himself under his pillow - yes, pillow! - this evening with Dolly and Panda and went to sleep Dolly kisses us all each morning too!)

The reason these words are used (about it not being a breastmilk substitute) is because in the legislation, anything intended for a baby below the age of 6 mths is defined as a breastmilk substitute. Anything intended for a baby over 6 mths is not, regardless of whether it is milk or not. They have to say 'not intended to replace breastfeeding' - it's the law.

Of course it doesn't make sense in the real world as babies have milk for a long after 6 mths...and anything that is milk, but not breastmilk, is in practice a breastmilk substitute.

The law's a bag o' shite then, isn't it, Tiktok?

If babies are meant to have breastmilk or formula as a main drink till they're one, it's very clearly a breastmilk substitute.

Gah.

Just wanted to address Elf's point a bit further down, where she mentions that formula shouldn't be swept under the carpet.

I completely agree with you. I would hate for that to happen as well. I think what we are all of us saying is that formula advertising needs to be replaced with clear, concise information rather than the cutesy vomitsy adverts which are in place now. But I do know what you're saying about the slap in the face, I think.

The formula adverts work on a level which I hadn't really thought about before - which is that they reinforce and justify the decisions that ff-ing mothers made - or they make them feel better about their "failure" (or more likely the failure of others' to support them ) to breastfeed. If you take away the adverts you take away their justification, you take away that good feeling and yes, I think we do run the risk of making ff-ing mothers feel guilty.

But I think what a lot of mothers don't understand is that they're not the ones who should feel guilty. They simply bought into the big fat lie - or one of many lies. The "formula is just as good as breastmilk" lie (Aptamil), the "formula will make your husband love you more" lie (SMA), and the "formula will make babies laugh more" lie (C&G). Of course, no-one likes to feel duped either, but a lot of anger is being misdirected towards people like hunker, and Tiktok, and Sabire, when it should be directed towards the formula companies.

Tiktok - that comment you made lower down, about the potential exploitation of poverty by the formula companies really chilled me. And that's stupid because I know they do it elsewhere in the world - why not in the UK?

To answer VVV's question....i didn't try breast-feeding for my first 3 children..

why??

It wasn't a natural feeling for me to try it tbh....it made me cringe all the way through pregnancy i knew it was best for baby..but i couldn't overcome that urggh feeling.

A couple of days after giving birth maternal feelings flooded in, and i regretted not trying and really really had the urge to breast-feed but it was too late.

With my 4th baby i put down on my birth pla thatiwanted to try and breast feed and to make the midwife make me!...and the midwife did that exactly half and hour after birth and i was too tired to argue! I fed him for a little over a year, and it was great!

I tried breast-feeding my twins, but they just kept bringing up blood it wasn't nice to see and i gave up.

I didn't try with my next set of twins (would have been too hard to breast feed them and look after the others).

Sosome women just don't have the initial urge to try it.

"about the potential exploitation of poverty by the formula companies really chilled me"

I think that's the hardest thing for me when it comes to talking about this subject with other people who haven't thought about the underpinning issues very much.

Your choice as to how you feed your baby, and your experience of it is intensly personal - but in a wider context this is a political issue - about power and vulnerablity and big business. I have to stop myself getting too worked up about it - when I think about the damage done to women and to babies over the years, that's still going on. The money made. The lies told.

And then you talk to people who go on about 'breastfeeding nazis'...... and say things like 'I can't understand why people get so worked up about how other people feed their babies' ... I feel like we might as well be on different planets.

"Sosome women just don't have the initial urge to try it"

I do wonder what it is about our culture and our modern birthing practices and environment that's resulted in so many mums losing their natural mothering instinct to put their babies to their breast. Because it IS instinctive behaviour surely?

It can't have happened regularly in the past, otherwise the human race would have died out.....

Yes, i am sure for the majority of women it is sabire....i am just explaining mine!

so am i a bloody freak???

Perhaps it's because it is seen as a choice, Sabire? Because we do have the choice over whether we feed our babies formula milk or breastmilk, and obviously because formula is seen as the "norm", the natural instinct is dulled.

And, actually, if we're talking Stone Age women in caves, perhaps some of them didn't have the natural urge to put the baby to the breast, but they had no choice but to nurse their babies or let them die. And some of them probably died.

This is pure speculation, you understand.

"so am i a bloody freak???"

I think by definition to be a freak you've got to be someone who's very unusual or 'irregular'

You're actually part of a pretty sizable minority as 30% of women in the UK don't put their baby to the breast after birth. So no - not a freak!

"And, actually, if we're talking Stone Age women in caves, perhaps some of them didn't have the natural urge to put the baby to the breast, but they had no choice but to nurse their babies or let them die. And some of them probably died"

Hmmmmm, I wonder how that works in evolutionary terms......

And how things will work now we're managing to circumvent the evolutionary mechanism so often.

..well thats ok then...lol

however i did once, and really enjoyed it.

So i am proof that the feelings can be overcome

combined with the 'ugh' feeling, it can also matter a great deal the type of birth you are having, whether or not you have an urge to bf. The 'ugh' feeling, i think, is largely a product of our cultural conditioning. Women who have always seen bfing around them probably would never even assume of feeding differently - that is their cultural conditioning too.

I put in my birth plan that i wanted to bf. My labour was v. fast, intense and was going into eclampsia. the only way i avoided a c/s was that dd was ventoused for her safety before they could get me into theatre. After what I had been through, i was numb to everything. I went on to bf anyway but getting it established and bonding with dd was also a big struggle.

Fairies, your story partly verifies the lack of support and knowledge for bfing within the health care system. It is possible to establish breastfeeding a few days even a couple weeks after giving birth, even if you didn't try on day 1 or 2.
As long as you had told your MW/hv that you had changed your mind and wanted to try it, they should have sought you professional support to begin bfing.

tbh..i never actually asked whether it was too late....this was nearly 16 years ago when my first was born..and it was very much a formula feeding time.

attitudes have definately changed here somewhat. I was talking a midwife when i was in hospital last about feeding-she said they would love to promote and have the time to support breast-feeding mums more but they are so under-staffed it was really hard.

Very sad situation.