Help, I have become a human dummy

[genia]

Hi
My baby is 13 months old and still breastfed. He is still fed to sleep both for his naps (2 a day) and at night. That wouldn't be SO bad (even if not ideal - especially the daytime naps) but he also wakes up at night and goes back to sleep drinking milk. I am kicking myself for not having tried harder to do something about the night feeding sooner but at the time I was REALLY tired etc... Now he has become even more self-willed obviously and has taken to wanting to suck for long periods at night as his sleep gets lighter and it gets closer to morning. My ultimate goal, starting with getting rid of the night feeding is to get him down to two long breastfeeds a day - one first thing in the morning and one before bed at night. Does anybody have any advice on how to do this - I can't see the wood for the trees!!!
Thank you.

Sorry, I forgot to add - do you think he could be hungry? I think it's habit that makes him wake up but I suppose he must expect some of his daily calories at night. I do not want to move him on to formula as other people have suggested. I suppose once you cut out the night feeding they eat more during the day but how to cut out the night feeds???

You poor love, you must be exhausted.

I think Gina Ford has a routine for cutting down night breastfeeds (Fordies can no doubt elaborate) if you want to do it by the book. But basically, I guess you can either go cold turkey and let him cry or try pulling him off after progressively shorter periods and hope he doesn't scream.

Don't know how you or he feels about bottles but if you send your partner in to him instead with ebm, he won't smell you. Are you still co-sleeping (sounds like you might be if he's sucking for long lengths of time) - changing that might help - make you less available?

He probably does rely on the night feeds for food right now, but he doesn't need them. He will eat more in the day when he needs to, as long as you make food available.

You might find it easier to start with one of the naps first? I'd make the most of the holiday period to get your partner to do it instead...

Try controlled crying for the night feeds. At 13 months old, he will not be hungry at night, unless he is not getting enough food during the day. It must be habit now. Another thing to do if he wakes up is to offer water only. He will soon realise that this is all he will be getting, and it should only take a couple of nights to establish.

Another thing suggested to me by my hv was to reduce the time of night feeds over a five night period, until he was having no milk on the last night. I tried it, and it worked after only one night! This obviously could have been because my ds was ready to go through anyway, but it is surely worth a try?

It must be so hard for you, and I do sympathise wholeheartedly. Night feeds are so tiring, and I felt exhausted after only 8 months! By 13 months, my ds was only having a morning feed, having decided by himself to give up the evening feed, shortly after his first birthday. At this age, they can realistically be drinking cow's milk instead of b/milk, so there is no reason why he would NEED so many feeds in the day and night. If you were happy doing this, all well and good, but you are not, and it is not necessary!

Good luck with it all, and please let us know how it goes. As Phillipat said, the Christmas break is an ideal time to start, as your dh can help.

I think you have to be a bit tough! I got my ds off night feeds at 8months and was desperate to the point of derangement... We cut out night feeds gradually - first no feeds between midnight and five (I think) then no feeds between bedtime and five and then no feeds until 7am-ish - done gradually over a couple of weeks. Instead my dh would go in during the 'banned' times and comfort him back to sleep so he would be close to tempation! Ds has a dummy too. This was quite easy. When he stopped feeding at night a very little controlled crying sorted out the night waking. As others have said, he truly doesn't need night feeds at all. YOu have to think of yourself now, and if you go on like this you won't be a happy, healthy mother. Good luck. Richard Ferber's Book Solve Your Child's Sleep Problems is very good.

Hi qenia, can't add much but only echo the excellent advice here - I did the controlled comforting routine with dd at 10 months after enduring the night feeds, which our HV said she didn't need execpt as comfort, and basically she just needed to learn how to put herself back to sleep. It worked after only 2 (tough) nights and was soooooo worth it! Save your sanity now! Good luck!

Thanks for the advice. Why do you think he is sucking SO much more at night now than he was, say, a week ago? It's as if he totally associates sleep with sucking at the same time...

It is habit. Do you let him have a dummy to suck instead? I know some people don't like them, but it might help during the transition.

I have a different point of view to your situation. 13 months is a very common time for a major growth spurt, and many many many babies do a lot of their nursing at night. He may just be very hungry right now. Really listen when he's nursing at night right now; can you hear him gulping? Or is it just the quiet, slow/gentle comfort sucking? If he's really drinking, now may not be the time to put a stop to it. One thing to do is to encourage as much nursing during the day as possible in the hopes that he won't be so hungry at night.

A very very good book with advice on how to stop night feeding/night waking is The No-Cry Sleep Solution by Elizabeth Pantley. Here at the author's site you can read exerpts of her book to see if perhaps her methods mesh well with what you might like to do:

No Cry Sleep Solution

I'm not big on controlled crying, myself. But different things work for different parents!

I have to say I can't stand Ferber's book. His methods are frightening. At one point he says that if baby is crying to the point of hysteria they may possibly vomit, and if they do to leave them in the vomit until they fall asleep (pass out from nervous exhaustion) and then clean it up while they are sleeping so they don't know you've come. In my humble personal opinion it is a very wonderful thing if children know their parents will come when they are frightened and upset. I personally wouldn't take his advice as I do not want my daughter to come to the conclusion that I am not to be depended on.

I did try to give him a dummy quite a while ago and he just played with it. Things may be different now so I will try again. I don't think he is gulping loads of milk in the night Corbin - not in the wee hours of the morning when he wakes up so maybe the thing for him would be to try what aloha did by phasing out milk availability at night gradually. Thanks for pointing out about the growth spurt Corbin - the only thing about that is that I know other babies who haven't been fed at night for literally ages and they are okay - presumably feeding their growth spurt during the day instead of at night. I'm not really an advocate of controlled crying either - I am co-sleeping with ds at the moment and I am happy for myself or for dh to do that (the three of us do not sleep all together as dh snores and I would feel terribly trapped), it's just the comfort sucking on an empty boob which I would like to stop! I guess a warm boob which smells of Mummy and emits even a few drops of milk is nicer than a rubber dummy!
My other question was - if dh for example tries to comfort ds back to sleep between midnight and five in the morning, he will still be being fed to sleep at the beginning of the night so is that not confusing or was it okay aloha? I think one of the reasons I have let the situation get so out of hand is that I just haven't known where to start. I have in the past managed to feed him until he wasn't totally asleep and then rocked him to sleep on my shoulder but it took absolutely AGES...
At the moment we are both sleeping on a futon on his bedroom floor so I don't think in all honesty that he will ever go back into a cot as he is so used to moving all over his futon.
Anyway, enough from me!

genia, I don't think you need to worry about everything all at once! I know all the books say - don't feed them to sleep, you'll regret it etc, but I honestly think it's fine to just try and change what you're not hapy with, you may just have to face the fact you have to be a little tough to do it.

If it's the early morning sucking that bothering you, then just try and tackle that - cut down how long you let him suck for over a few nights and eventually put a tight thick jumper on at midnight! I suspect he'll come around to cuddles instead, although I still think he might find it easier with dh so he doesn't smell you, but fair enough if that's not right for you.

I understand you still enjoy co-sleeping so I'm not trying to get you to give up. However to let you know my experience, I had real trouble with the idea of moving dd out of our room but finally gave in at 10 months when she had got progressively more and more demanding through the night and I was at the end of my tether. Low and behold, instant sucess, no night waking. She was obviously being disturbed by us. I felt really selfish when I realised that I had been stopping her having a good nights sleep.

I don't really like Ferber's methods either but I found his book really valuable for the bit where he explained sleep and children's expectations. Pantley pretty much includes the same advice. Then at least you know what you're dealing with, you can just use your own methods.

I must say, I disagree about the growth spurt - usually growth slows right down after the first year (otherwise if we kept growing at that rate we'd all end up 50ft tall!). Developmentally children change rapidly, but I think growth slows down. Anyway, babies of 13 months don't need to eat at night, any more than we do - they just like it out of habit sometimes. If my dh or eleven year old stepdaughter fancied a nice milkshake in the middle of the night I certainly wouldn't leap out of bed to make it. And I believe that mothers count too! If you are exhausted, sleep deprived and desperate that matters more than a child being deprived of the 'treat' of an unneccessary feed. I had to think of ds's night feeds as his wanting something that ultimately wasn't good for him. I wouldn't let him play with the plug no matter how much he cried, and having a mother who was bad tempered, over emotional and too tired to play or be enthusiastic after 8months of broken nights was NOT in ds's interest, even if he was too young to understand that. This was a vital change in my mindset that I had to achieve before I could face saying no to him. On a cheerier note, once you decide to change things you may well be surprised how easy and painless it is. It is easy to fall into the trap of assuming something to be true (they won't like being in a cot/they will be hungry and sad if I don't feed them whenever they fancy it) and acting as if it IS true and not even trying to change. YOu won't know if your assumptions are correct until you try to change. I remember worrying about moving my ds into a cot - and guess what? He didn't even notice! Now he can't sleep anywhere else and longs to be in it when he's tired. I thought we'd really struggle over the night feeds, but it was very easy to get him out of feeding at night, and only took a very little crying to get him to go back to sleep by himself (one 20minute stretch and a few bouts of around 5-10minutes - horrid at the time but bliss when it worked and I started sleeping eight uninterrupted hours a night, every night). Ferber's book is great because he really knows his stuff about infant sleep - it's full of very interesting case histories and lots of the science of sleep which will help you understand why your child wakes. I didn't use any of his charts etc as we're not that organised, but found it was good to read to help my resolve to change things. My suggestions would be to get your dh to look after your ds at night for a few nights, do the feeds up to a certain point and after a certain point, increasing the feed-free part of the night until it runs from your ds's bedtime to morning. YOu might want to do shifts as this period will be tiring as your ds will probably we awake for slightly longer periods as he gets used to going without a feed. Also, you may want to try again with the dummy. Pulling it gently out of his mouth just as he starts to suck is a good way of training him to suck again harder - keep repeating this. If he really needs to suck that much for comfort I feel pretty sure he will like the dummy eventually. My ds has one all night, but he still sleeps through. Finally, after letting my ds cry he was certainly not unhappy. He's the cuddliest, most affectionate baby I know. He kisses me and pats me and says 'good boy' to me! Also, nothing has made him happier than having a healthy, growth-promoting good night's sleep every night It's good for babies to sleep and by helping him to sleep through you will be doing both of yourselves a favour. I know how awful I felt after 8months of very broken sleep and how I felt like a different person afterwards which is why this post is so long! Go for it! You won't regret it.

Oh, and I agree you don't have to change everything at once. We did cot first, then a while later phased out night feeding quite slowly, then did the cc. I wouldn't even try cc until you have eliminated night feeds - even Ferber says that.

Thanks aloha and philippat. When you were phasing out the feeding in the middle part of the night aloha, was your ds still being fed to sleep at the beginning of the night or was he going to sleep another way?

I know it is about me deciding to do something about it - I'm probably getting pay-offs from the situation remaining as it is which are too long-winded and boring to go into here... things about me and dh etc...

I know ds needs a good night's sleep and I know I am not helping him by keeping up what we are doing but somewhere I guess I must be scared of losing my privileged position as "Mummy"...

Genia, It's funny isn't it, he's only 15months but I can't rightly remember every detail! At 8months I think I sometimes fed him to sleep but sometimes not - as I say, he has a dummy so he does still suck himself to sleep, but that's fine as the dummy is on a clip so he can just pop it back in during the night, instead of relying on me! He definitely liked to suck and suck at night... aargh! I remember bursting into tears once at about 3am at the prospect of having to sit upright (he'd never feed lying down). Please don't dread change so much, you don't know, it could all be much easier than you anticipate, it was for me. I'm not saying that I wasn't tempted to give in and sometimes it was hard, but so worth it. As for giving up your privileged position... NEVER! Love comes in many other ways than via breastfeeding. I cuddle ds with much more enthusiasm at 6.30 or 7am if I've slept all night. He's a very cuddly boy who calls out 'mama!' all the time and is very affectionate to me.

Have you tried feeding him lying down in bed - you can do this and hardly need to wake up. Personally I'd not try a dummy at this late age as there are problems associated with weaning them off them. It is natural for them to want you. I would try a more softly soflty approach and ask your dh to comfort him. Better that he has another human to soothe him to sleep than sticking a dummy in. I co-slept and fed ds for ages and gradually weaned him into a cot when he was about 18 months (although he was nearer 3 before he would sleep on his own all the time). With dd (8.5 months) I also co-sleep but I am more firm and just pull away after a few minutes. This seems to be fine as she gets her comfort but realises that I've not gone away. I really don't like controlled crying for young children, as crying is the only way they can communicate.

My humble opinion ....good luck

When I said to use controlled crying, I meant the following:

When he wakes, go in and comfort him after one minute. The next time, leave it two minutes, then five etc etc. Babies needs reassurance that you will always come to them if they are distressed, but increasing the gaps means that they learn to be alone too. I would never leave my ds until he vomited. If he gets hysterical, I always get him, and sit on the bed, but it usually only takes 5 minutes before he is asleep, or ready to go back to bed alone. He just needs a bit more attention sometimes. I don't own and have never read Ferber's book, I just understand the basic principles as explained by my HV.

A 12 month old can go to bed alone, and does not need a midnight snack. If you woke up in the night hungry, you would wait until morning wouldn't you? Your ds needs to learn that too. A few nights is all it takes to teach a child this, and although a lot of people say it is a bad week, they usually say that it was worth it. I can vouch for the fact that a sleep of longer than 4 hours in one go does wonders for your life!

I weaned my dd at one year..I just couldn't wait to stop feeding her, I felt like a cow kicking away the calf!
By this stage I was jsut feeding her at night, so she would fall asleep and she then would wake up around midnight or 1am for another suck.

It took about two weeks in all, but I jsut used to make sure she had plenty to eat during the day including a mid morning and mid afternoon snack and then I put her to bed by reading a story, cuddling and talking to her till her eyes started to "hood". I'd then put her down and she'd often start crying. After 5 mins I'd bring her down and rock her in a rocking chair infront of the telly. This worked nearly every time and then I'd put her back in her cot.

AFter 2 weeks or so she'd go to sleep fairly quickly and easily after the story bedtime routine.
The only way we stopped the middle of the night feed was by dh comforting her or putting her into bed on his side until she calmed down. Again when she realised she wasn't going to get any milk she soon stopped.
She has always slept in our room and the cot is next to the bed so she knows we are there. Sometimes jsut holding her hand was enough to send her back to sleep.
Funnily enough she'd never had a dummy till then but found one we had lying around and has used it to suck as she falls asleep. I was really against them but if she feelss better wiht it , then I can't see the problem.

Hope this long message helps...we did go several weeks of feeling like sleep deprived zombies but it was worth it to have her off the breast and sleeping right through.

I have been rethinking this during dinner. You have to start teaching your ds who is in control here. It sounds harsh, but all I really mean is that you can not pander to their every whim, otherwise they learn that they can get whatever they want. Treat it in the same way as you would a tantrum (which will soon appear, believe me. I don't believe in the 'terrible two's', as I started experiencing them at about 15 months! ) You make sure that they are safe and that there is no real reason for their crying i.e. nappy/hot/cold/fever etc. If they are well and otherwise happy, then it is only that they want to feel secure. Checking on them every few minutes usually reassures them.

If you let them get up/feed/co-sleep every time they cry, you will never teach them to be happy alone. I have a friend who is still sleeping in her daughter's bed at 2.5 years. Her dd goes to bed at 11pm every night, the same time that they do! My dh and I have our evenings to ourselves and our ds sleeps through to 7.30am every morning. I was the typical mother who answered my ds's every whim, until my dh made me realise that I was doing more harm than good.

Now, I have a ds who is happy to sit in his travel cot and play or watch CBeebies while I have a shower. OK, we do have the odd bad night (Xmas Eve he woke up at 9.30pm and would not go to sleep until 1am), but in general, we have an excellent sleeper. I am not saying that 'I'm right, you're wrong', just that you are important in this equation too. You need your sleep, and 12 months is not too young to start to let your ds be a child rather than a baby.

However, the final thing is that you must be happy with what you decide to do. If you are happy to carry on getting up in the night, there is no problem. Every parent had their own ideas on what is best for their child, and no-one is totally right or wrong. If we were, we'd be making a fortune publishing our own baby books!

Remember, he doesn't need to eat at night any more than you do! You wouldn't give him sweets at night would you, no matter how much of a fuss he made? Treat the feed the same way. Get your dh to comfort and cuddle (nobody here is advocating leaving a hysterical child in a puddle of vomit!) but don't give in to the feed except at the times you set for yourself as deadlines, gradually increasing the times. I agree, crying is the only way they communicate, so crying for a baby doesn't mean the same as it does for an adult. I can tell the difference between a cry that says 'help, I'm panicking' and a cry that says 'Come on and play with me right now! I'm a bit fed up" and a cry that says, 'I'm very, very tired and hate feeling so tired'. I ignore the latter two at night - especially the last, which often occurs for a few minutes when I put him down, but disappears very fast! I think of myself as an extremely doting and sappy mother but I would be in a psychiatric ward if I was still up all night doing feeds

Genia - if you were after reassurance about feeding to sleep, see thread in SLEEPING: "still breastfeeding your over one year old to sleep ?". I started it because I am too, didn't even think to look under 'breastfeeding' for help ! Good luck with however you progress.

Thanks tomps, I'll have a look.

I also don't see much harm in feeding to sleep (except it means nobody else can put them to bed but you which I found restricting, personally) but night waking is another thing. It's exhausting and used as a form of torture with good reason! I think if you are happy and feel well with endless broken sleep that's great. If you aren't and don't you do need to do something about it for your own sake. I certainly did.

Hmmm... well, normally I feed DD to sleep, but i can still leave her with her dad & she will go off with a cuddle. Not that difficult... as for whether they need to feed at night -- maybe they don't need food, but how many of us go 12 hours at night without a drink of water? Of course they wake up grizzly & want a cuddle with the drink.

To stop night feeding I just cuddled the baby and rubbed back but didn't feed at first. If DD really screams for a while, in spite of the cuddles, I know that she's truly hungry/thirsty.

genia, not much advice but lots of hugs. I really feel for you. At the same time, I am so scared when I read your message. My dd is 6.5 month old, doing the same thing - sucking for really long periods, 2-3 hours if I fall asleep before she goes into deep sleep. She fights so hard every time I take it off, it's almost as if she fights going into deep sleep also. I sleep with her while dh is in another bed also, which I think is perfectly fine. I also think it's fine if she wakes up and wants to cuddle or suck for a few minutes for reassurance that I'm still with her. After all, at her age, she doesn't know I'm still around if she doesn't see me (or in the night case, if she can't touch me). I just hate it when she sucks the empty boob away for hours and my nipples hurt and this is the only thing I'd like to stop. I sometimes think she'll grow out of it, like so many other things she's learned all by herself. You show me a different story though and that's really scary to think that this can last many, many more months if I don't do anything about it.

Not a fan of CC but one advice I got is this: Babies are different and CC (or any other 'sleep train' is not for every baby. When some parents say they did CC with xx min crying before the baby falls asleep, some babies just whined, didn't really scream. And these are babies who are already relatively easy sleepers, not all that strong-willed. There are yet stories about babies who scream their heads off for 4 hours straight without signs of tapering off. You are the best judge of your baby, and whether you can tolerate the amount of crying you think your ds can do. If you ever think you'll try CC, keep this in mind and make sure you really can go through. If you give up in the middle, all you got are just broken hearts of everyone involved w/o gains.

Totally understand you about feeling REALLY tired, too tired to spend much energy changing it, too confused to know where to start. Let me know how it goes with you. I think we are going through a very similar situation.