What should I do? Oops, rather long, sorry!

[Flossam]

I'm wondering whether or not to introduce a formula feed as a bedtime feed. He is two months old, co-sleeps with us at the moment (isn't a fan of his moses basket) and so far has been exclusively breast fed. I don't want to give it to him because I want DS to sleep longer but because he becomes really anxious (yes I've posted on this before) and agitated at this time (and only this time). He straches and pushes and pulls himself off me, cries and gets himself frenzied into a state.

I've tried lights off, minimal interation with him in the evenings, putting him down to calm down and picking him up again. I've tried seeing if it was because I had too much milk or overactive let down. I've taken action about this (feeding off the same side for 2 hour periods) and it seems much better (the sofa stays drier anyhow ). I've also tried getting him to sleep before bringing him into the bedroom, which was fine, he slept but then we had the same problem when he woke up for his next feed. The room is at the right (or therabout) temperature, and I've tried various bedding. He hate's having his arms trapped, but I've tried swaddling with them in and out. Arms in works OK when he's about to go to sleep, but during these problem times he quite literally battles to the death, feeding and fighting till he passes out.

I've been trying to express milk for the evening when I can, tonight I have 80mls expressed so far, which I don't think will be enough, and that's best effort! I'll try and do more during this evening, but DS seems to feed more during the evening so I don't have a) time or b) enough supply spare to express! I try and feed off one side in the evenings to 'save' enough milk one the other side to settle him at bedtime.

The relentless fussing and agitation is really starting to get me down. I never get to sleep before 1am, sometimes it is as late as 2 or 3. I really don't want to give him anything other than me, but the idea of having a lovely full bottle to give him, knowing there was enough to satisfy him.. It just seems wonderful! Any advice or suggestions would be so gratefully recieved!

Not sure if I can help ghere, Flossam. Yes - there are circadian patterns to bf, in that more may be produced at night because basal levels of prolactin are higer, but the difference is not that much....the basic 'driver' of the supply is the frequency and effectiveness of the baby sucking. I don't know why you are expressing, really! Your milk production is prob too much, not too little - expressing will exacerbate the worst effects of too much milk by making you produce even more. Drinking more will make no difference either way - that's a big myth.

I don't understand your other question, sorry, about constant supply and the need for the baby to suckle more....the baby doesn't have to suck more at 'emptier' breasts, the milk is let down regardless of his strength of sucking, but maybe I have not understood what you are after

Sorry tiktok! I'm a complete pain I know. I realised as soon as DS was born that I would be frequenting this board rather a lot! . I am unable to express from my breasts when they 'feel' empty to me, which is another reason I'm worried. When I meant taking longer is if the breasts don't have much/any milk in, the baby might have to suck for longer as the milk is being produced. Does that make any sense? As things seemed to be working better with the expressing I think I'll stick with it for now, please don't think your advice isn't much appreciated though tiktok, I'm just trying to find a way!!

Hi Flossam,
I was looking for some info on letdown reflex and came across this article on Kellymom
link to an article all about babies fussing at the breast at night time.
Worth a look?

Flossam, what breast pump are you using? sometimes an expressing problem can be solved just by using a different pump. I used an Ameda Purely Yours with great success.

Flossam, I haven't read all the replies but I thought I would just share with you what we did when DD was like this.
After a bit of trial and error I realised that when she fussed at the breast she wanted to suck but didn't want milk ... so when she got milk she got mightily pissed off ....
That is how the dummy came into action. I introduced a dummy at about 4 weeks .... I only gave it to her AFTER a feed when I was absolutely sure she had had enough milk and that she was just comfort sucking .... (I have a son as well and I couldn't be sitting there for hours with her sucking and not feeding).
In the evenings I would get anxious if she fussed and I would try and try and try to get her to have a decent feed but eventually I would give up and give her the dummy and she would fall asleep in seconds .... so eventually I worked out that she just wanted to suck but not feed. Had she not been putting on weight and been pretty contented then I probably would have thought more about bottles but I trained myself to trust my body and her appetite .....
Hope that helps and hope things improve soon ...
G xxx

Also, I was always able to express even when I had the soft breast feeling you describe, so it can be misleading at first.

Hi.
I have the same prob with my 11 week old, but I have found a solution that worked for me for the last two nights.
In the morning, when I do the first feed, I espress on one side whilst feeding with the other I usually get 4 0z this time. Then at lunch time I do the same again and put the two together, making an 8 0z bottle! In the evening when she starts to fuss, I give her the expressed milk and she then sleeps for about 4 hours, sometimes more or less. The her last feed before bed is a happy quiet one and I put her to sleep in her baby sleep bag(she can't wriggle out of it). I put her in her cot awake and she dozes off on her own knowing that I am still in the room. It takes patience to do this but the more you put baby down awake to go off, the easier your life will be in the end and it should only take aprox 3 days for baby to get the message. Mine co slept until 3 weeks then I had enouigh of careful sleep!!. Give it a go, nothing to lose. By the way, if you can't get him to sleep from fully awake, put baby in sleep bag, rock to sleep then put in cot. He will still be warm and won't notice change in body temp. My experience anyway, and still making mistakes of my own, and I am mum of 4!! Good luck xx