Trying to decide whether to give up BF 6 month son in aid of getting some sleep! Advice please.

[SalBow]

Hello everyone, sorry for the long post. My son is nearly six months old and has never slept for more than 4 hours. This is at the start of the night, from 8ish, then he wakes every two hours or more recently, every hour. Just when I think it can't get any worse, it does! I'm exhausted and something has to change. He is on solids for two meals a day and is gradually starting to take small amounts of formula from a bottle. I started this in the hope of working towards giving him a formula dream feed to help him sleep for longer in the middle of the night. He won't settle without BF every time he wakes up but falls asleep before having a proper feed. It's difficult to keep him awake, and as the night goes on, I get too tired to try. I am co-sleeping, would like him to be in the cot, but having trouble summoning the energy to persist with it at the moment. My HV says I should maybe think about giving up BF as nothing is likely to change unless I do. I'm torn between being desperate for sleep and wanting to continue some BF for lots of reasons. Any ideas / similar experiences would be very welcome.

Dc4 was exactly the same until around 14 mnths. It took about a wk but she now sleeps from 7 til 6ish when she she comes into bed for a breast feed. Start by teaching him to get himself to sleep without the breast in the daytime - i presume he goes in his cot for naps? I didn't bother with offering water instead of breast at night. If you don't want to give up,don't. I also co-slept in as much as i would put her in her cot at 7,bring her in with us when she woke and then she would feed all night.Eventually i got dh to put her in her cot after a night feed and then after a wk of this went to controled crying which was hard but took about a wk.She is now 22mnths and still breastfed on demand.

I should add that i didn't start trying until she was about 14mnths - she was in our room until that point because of lack of space etc!

I gave up bf at 6 months because I thought it would help ds to settle at bedtime better. MAde no difference and at nearly 2 he still isn't a great sleeper. I also gave him some solids at 5 months for the same reason. Made no difference. I will be bf and holding out on the weaning for much longer with htis baby. I think your HV is wrong btw

I'm not sure the dream feed would work as he does his long bit of sleep in the early stages (my lo was the same)
Not sure that formula would be any good as it is probably the other stuff (love cuddles you) than he wants/needs rather than food.

I would move him to a cot and then leave him for 5 mins when he wakes up to see if he self-settles. When he knows that you will come soon, he will relax and may fall asleep by himself (iyswim).

Salbow - I can relate to this. We tried ff ds2 at night, but it made no difference whatsoever. Something which did work for us, was to give him some porridge just before going up for a bath. I still bf after his bath, and it did seem to fill him up for longer.
We co-slept til he was about 7mths. At first I was reluctant about co-sleeping, but it was the only way I could get some sleep.
Is he having a proper feed when he wakes, or is it comfort? If its comfort, then maybe try putting something that smells of you in his cot. Also, as soon he he went in his own room, it made a big difference. Still occassionally woke up, but settled himself back to sleep.
I think you're HV is wrong too.

Your HV is talking out of her backside.

Sleeping is a behavioural and developmental process and some babies don't manage it until later than others.

The problem as I see it is that your baby has learnt to suck himself to sleep (quite normal) and isn't necessarily trying to feed. You need to break the association of sucking on you to get himself to sleep. I found the book "The No-Cry Sleep Solution" by Elizabeth Pantley very helpful. It will be hard and won't happen overnight but can be done, but you may need the support of a partner to break the breast/sleep association.

It's quite reasonable for him to want a feed once overnight, but every hour or two is (in my experience) for comfort and not feeding, especially if he is falling asleep quickly on the breast.

we are going through a similar thing
(my thread here www.mumsnet.com/Talk/5/509346?stamp=080408011748)

not sure formula would help
somehow you need to break that feed to sleep association. have you read no cry sleep solution? good tips there

maybe try first with the day naps - getting to sleep by himself by pating/sitting beside him etc

good luck
its a nightmare isn't it - esp in RL - when it feels like every other baby is sleeping through!

My DS was the same. Its normal, I think. Not sure stopping BF would help - is it worth the risk? In the end if you're still getting up, formula in the night is much more of a pain than BF.

I used to have a 'night off' every 10days-fortnight where partner would sleep in with DS and offer bottle in the night (either EBM or formula). Very little was drank, so I think that helped him start giving up feeds in the night (though he still woke for comfort cuddles). He gave up feeds around 7-8 mths and first slept through at 8.5 mths.

I also used the no-cry 'pantley pull off' if I was feeding to sleep, to gently break the feeding-to-sleep thing. I think this helped and was low-stress.

You have lots of my sympathy! Its exhausting. I resisted co-sleeping for lots of reasons but am now pregnant and I am definitely going to go for whatever gets me sleep - all these 'bad habits' are much easier broken when they're older.

Congrats!!

I remember getting this advice a lot in RL
as Formula is supposed to be more difficult to digest
hence baby sleeps longer.

Well, we never tried it but in theory the same should hold
for los who are weaned - and it doesn't, does it?
Just because they have more food in their tummies
does not mean that they will settle more easily or sleep through.
Unfortunately!

Thanks everyone for your great advice and support. It's nice to know that it's not just me. It does seem that all my RL friends who FF, have babies who sleep really well, hence the attempt to FF at night.
I think he probably is comfort sucking too though. I will work on the teaching him to go to sleep on his own during the day. At the moment I have to either BF to sleep, go for a walk with pushchair or stand up and jiggle all 19lb 2oz of him. My arms feel like they are about to fall out off.
Yes, I do have the no-cry sleep solution thanks. It is a great book, but it's hard work to stick to plans when you're very low on resources. Will re-read and try to muster strength!
Thanks also for the thoughts re the HV, I tend to agree. Will also try to get DH involved a bit more. He is willing, but he's been relegated to the spare room with the cat cos he snores REALLY LOUDLY and so does the cat who also tries to sleep on my head! Aarggh!

Sal I could have written your post. My DS is 24 weeks so not on solids yet, just about to start with that. But the rest, exactly the same.

I have no advice! I don't know what to do myself - have read No Cry Sleep Solution but like you say it's hard not to despair of how slow the progress is when you're exhausted - you cave in and do what works because you can't function at any other level. It's so hard. I wish I put DS down awake from day 1, but that's hindsight for you...

I did the Pantley pull off too, kayjayel - it works a treat.
I agree with the other posters, stopping bfeeding probably isn't the answer. I'd say that you need to teach your lo good sleeping habits. I'll tell you what I've done with my two - though it may not be your cup of tea, it might give you some ideas...
When mine were small (under 6mo) I taught them to settle themselves by sitting with them, stroking and shhhhing until they fell asleep. I found lying next to the cot or next to them on the bed but not feeding really worked. I'd lie with my eyes closed doing sleepy breathing. I also tried to insert something between feeding and going to bed, like a story or a song to break that association.
After 6mo, I did controlled crying. My dd is only 6.5mo now, so I have done it with her yet, but with ds I'd go to him at increasing intervals from 5mins. I have found with them both that sometimes they need to wail a bit (no more than 5 mins) before they fall asleep. I used to only feed ds if he woke after 3am - I found I needed to cut how much he ate at night so he'd eat more in the day and slowly learn that night was for sleeping not eating. I found that around 6mo he was so interested in what was going on around him that he wasn't eating much during the day. Same with dd - she'd rather just fill her tummy a bit and then look around and get involved with stuff. Once they were eating proper meals, that problem disappeared.
Ds has been sleeping through since he was about ten months old (until recently, when he's been having night terrors). It was getting crawling that got him to do it in the end.

Easy to say for me but it's a phase he will grow out of, how many 5 year olds do you know that have to be fed to sleep?

My ds2 is 7 months and at 6 months I could have written your post, however last night he went from 7pm to 6.30am with a very short dream feed when I went to bed.

Every baby is different and sounds like your friends have been lucky. My dd was ff and slept through from about 4 weeks, ds1 was ff and slept through from 12 months . Hoping last night wasn't a fluke, but ds2 has been going gradually longer. He is rubbish at going to sleep during the day though!

I would work on the going to sleep semi-awake at bed time as I think this is the most important thing as they get older, it's nice to be able to give ds2 (2yr) a kiss night and let him go to sleep by himself.

Hope you don't have too many more sleepless nights.

Agree with all the others, stopping breastfeeding isnt the answer. Sleeping well is a behavioural issue not related to how you feed.
Think your HV is giving bad advice and am surprised she feels this is an appropriate or helpful thing to tell you.
I find co-sleeping the easiest way to get some sleep.
DS1 was breastfed till he was 2 and slept through from 9-10 months, DS2 is also breastfed and still not sleeping through at almost 11 months but we manage ok as I feed him and he goes straight back to sleep.
Perhaps try the "No Cry Sleep" book for useful and sympathetic advice.

thanks daddyj - but I fear I'll be back on the sleep section in a few months, and dreading it! Never been through such stress before in my life. People tried to warn me about sleep deprivation and it just didn't sink in. This time I know what I could be in for...

I didn't know sleep deprivation was so horrible. My DD ws the same and I would pick her up the first time she woke and co-sleep.
We did try CC (when she was about 9 months) and other methods and nothing worked.
At about 10 months old, we followed the recommendation of a paedo-psychiatrist and my mum took over putting her to bed and looking after her during the night. DD slept through on night 4 and has been a pretty good sleeper since (although every time I say this, I jinx it and she has a bad night!). I know your situation is different as your LO still needs a night feed but I do know that for DD the sucking for comfort cycle had to be broken. I carried on mixed feeding for a few months after that.

You never know, kayjayel, dc2 might be one of those babies
who just go to sleep of their own accord..they do exist, allegedly!

I have exactly the same problem with my ds. He's 20 weeks old and keeps waking up every 2 hours sometimes every hour. Thinking of the dream formula feed ... Ive heard there is a milk for hungry babies...I painted myself a picture that I will feed him in the evening and then ds will sleep through the night. Haha. After reading this thread Im not gonna even try. The thing is, he used to be a good sleeper. He woke up for a feed 2x a night and that was great with me. (and my DH ) I have too read the No cry solution. Ds used to have a dummy to go to sleep but than I got rid of it and he was ok for about 2 weeks. After that he started waking up and used me as a dummy for comfort feeds. So we are back to dummy but only during the night. The sleep deprivation is exhausting so sending a big hug to everyone who is experiencing it...I guess every parent!
And as Pantley says 'This too shall pass!'

Hi there. I just read this article and it made me feel soooo good. It's really well put so read away!

zuzkah, thst is a great article, thanks

Hi Salbow my DS is 6.5 months and I've been weaning him for the past couple of weeks. He's also a terrible sleeper, since 3 months has been waking every hour during the night. Now that I'm weaning him I think he's now old enough to be going longer that 1 hour between feeds at night.

So the past week I've only been feeding him every second hour, and the hour that he wakes and isn't due to be fed I just cuddle him back to sleep. The first couple of nights were difficult as he was expecting to be fed, but now he's going (mostly) 2 hours between feeds at night. It was more tiring to begin with but now I'm getting a bit more sleep

My plan is that once he's consistantly going for 2 hours between feeds then I'll increase the time to 3 hours....

I'm also co-sleeping btw, still need to figure out how to get him into his cot

Hi Salbow, your thread has pretty much described exactly what's happening with my DS2 (6 months) and I agree that the sleep deprivation is really difficult! BUT - it will pass. DS2 wakes every two or three hours at night to bf, and after several feeds I cave in and bring him into my bed to co-sleep the rest of the night. A few nights ago I tried him on his first cup of forumla (he won't drink from a bottle) but it made absolutely no difference to his night. I'm fairly confident that he's waking for comfort and because he needs my boob to fall back to sleep, not because he's hungry. If that's the case with your DS, formula won't make any difference. I'm just hoping that he'll one day learn how to settle himself to sleep - of course he will - but he's clearly not ready to at the moment. Hang in there - sleep wil come!!!

Hi everyone, again, thanks so much for all your responses, and much sympathy for those of you going through the same thing. Here's an update:
I should probably say that at the time I started this thread, DS had also recently started sometimes squirming and crying when he woke at night, whereas previously he would just feed then go back to sleep. I didn't want to bore you with too many details!
Anyway, it transpired that he got his first two teeth a few days after I posted! So I think that had explained why he was steadily getting worse at sleeping(not that he had ever been good), waking every hour or less from 2.00am onwards.
I did try giving him a dream feed at about 12. The first night he had about 5oz and slept for 3 hours! Which in our house, we consider fantastic! So we carried on doing this but over the next few nights he seemed less interested in eating and just wanted to go back to sleep. So I've stopped with the dream feed. Something has happened though, and I don't know why, but he has definitely stopped wanting to breastfeed as much at night. He's still been waking a lot most nights, and squirming and crying with a lot of wind (I'm putting this down to the teething). I have to cuddle him back to sleep. But we are increasingly having good nights, where he sleeps for several 2 or 3 hour chunks ! I think it's possible he's just growing out of it?! Also, I reread Pantley and have been putting him to sleep in his cot for as long as I can, usually till about 1.30, and this is gradually getting longer. So, no major breakthroughs, but I'm definitely feeling more positive and can now dare to believe that it's not going to last forever! xxx

I should also add that re the daytime naps, I decided to stop the standing up and jiggling him to sleep before my arms dropped off. I just refused to do it and held him sitting down instead. He wasn't that keen to start with, but within a day or two, he'd got used to it! I couldn't believe how easy it was to change this habit! I'm also putting him down to sleep every time, rather than holding him. So I'm slowly (very slowly) inching towards him learning to go to sleep on his own, which should also help the night wakings

Oh, and I'm definitely not giving up breastfeeding and shall be telling the HV so!