Advice please from bf councilor!

[manuka]

Hello! Please can you help to answer some questions I have? I'm trying to sort my head out after awful birth 21 months ago. Sorry if this is long winded.
Had planned a natural birth. but dd overdue so
I was induced, had long labour with all the drugs from the drugs trolley(codein, pethodine, epidural,) followed by c section without enough anaesthetic (then 3 shots of morphine and valium) and no support from awful midwife.

Tried to bf and this is the bit I need help to understand.
dd regularly put to breast and sometimes latched on well. midwives pulled my nipples into a teat which was very disturbing. They showed me how to hand pump and machine pump which I did every 2 hours as well as putting dd to breast.
My breasts never became 'engorged'. Nothing ever came out whilst 'pumping' but I smelled very strongly of milk and dd did loads of poo that also smelled of milk from day 2.
After day 8 or 9 I gave up trying as I was by this time severely depressed so used formula.

Did I have milk? How come my breasts never 'filled up'? Why did no milk come out whilst pumping? I had big electric hospital pump and did loads of hand expressing. I could feel the milk glands.

dd's poo was so sweet milky scented but that stopped when I used formula.
I was so fucked up at that time. I couldn't think straight. I used formula because dd seemed to be starving so I believed I had no milk.

It does my head in to think of that wierd time and the strong smell of milk but no swollen breasts and no milk during expressing.

I'm going to bed now because exhausted! But if anyone can help me with some answers I'd really hugely appreciate that and will be back on here probably tomoro lunchtime or evening.

Thanks.

just bumping cos really need answers

I really don't know what to say, because this so obviously seems to be distressing you, even though it is almost 2 years on. It sounds like you had a really dreadful time during the birth, and it is such a shame the midwife wasn't supportive.

Both of my DC were quite hungry from the start - they fed straight away, so my breasts didn't get the engorgement that people talk about, but I was certain that they were getting enough, because they were both happy & contented. And you can't judge your milk supply from expressing, because it looks so woefully little when it is in the bottle! From what you describe, feeding regularly, and expressing on top of that every 2 hours - no wonder very little came out! Why were they getting you to express? It seems a bit unusual to me (but I am no expert)

When it comes down to it, you tried BF, and went on to formula. Don't beat yourself up! The 8 or 9 days probably did the world of good, as you would have passed on your antibodies through the colostrum, however, so many babies are formula fed from day 1, and have no problems!

TBH it sounds to me like you are suffering from post traumatic stress. It is only recently being recognised as being as common as it is following birth. Do you think you should talk to your doctor about this, and explain you are having difficulty moving on from this episode?

Not a milk councillor but have had some breast feeding problems.

I too had planned 'natural birth' but was induced, drugged up and c-sectioned. Breast feeding was very very hard and if it hadn;t been for some superb midwife and breast feeding support care I would have switched to forular as dd too looked starving!

Don't know why they tweaked your nips all the tim - weirdos. I have never felt 'full' of milk. Have been breast feeding dd for 7months but have never felt engorged, squirted or done anything to suggest their's milk in there!

Concluded from various people that all the drugs but mainly the trauma and loss of blood prevented milk coming in.

Took me several weeks to be able to pump and now Ican;t get anything out - just how my boobs are I suppose.

However (and it took a while to believe this.... - again supportive breastfeeding help) I did manange to feed dd. I was told that if she was gaining weight, producing yellow nappies etc then I shjouldn;t worry - it would settle and my boobs would settle into the suply I needed.

You say you jhad the correct latch. How do you know? Cos I had a few midwives say it was fine untill one said it wasn;t and sorted it out.

Hope you feel sorted with this soon. I think you just needed more help. I couldn;t have done it without it.

Not a bf counsellor, but I breastfed DS until he was three and am breastfeeding 5-day-old DD.

I have never become engorged/swollen when my milk comes in. No increase in cup size, no breasts like cannonballs, nothing like that.

Not everyone manages to express milk; it's different physically and emotionally ffom nursing a baby.

It's probable that you did have plenty of milk, yes. It sounds as though you had a really traumatic birth experience followed by no effective breastfeeding support, though.

Hi Manuka,
I felt sad reading your post thinking about how unkindly and insensitively you were treated. I wish you'd been better looked after.

As to your question: if your daughter was pooing and weeing for the time that you fed her then she had your milk.

Have you thought of talking through your experience with a bf counsellor? It may help you to talk to someone who'll understand just what a difficult time you had of it and why it's still playing on your mind 21 months later.

Did someone suggest giving up manuka?
Who was helping yuo through this?

You sound like you had a tough time.

My boobs never got big and never leaked a drop but I was able to have faith in the fact that my body could and would produce milk. That is after all what they are designed for.

It's really hard to believe that if you are feeling shaky and not surrounded by people who know best how to help/support you.

I think it might be good for yuo to talk it through with a counselor too. They are all listed on right hand side o this website

Oh Manuka! I'm not an expert so really hope someone comes on here who can start to answer your questions. I second portandlemon - I just think it sounds like you had pretty awful 'support' - all these things being done to you, no explanations...
Sending you lots of sympathy and hopes for answers.
I remember the milky smell!! - so evocative - I was in hospital away from DD at 4 weeks post natal, and remember desperately sniffing at the milk patches on my hospital gown cos it smelt of her. FWIW,that was a really traumatic time for me / us and I knew what was happening and why - so don't feel like you should have dealt with us or anything, or apologise for asking for help / answers.
HTH in some way...

F'k me Manuka, it seems to me - just on what tyou have said here - that you had a traumatic birth with little support and that lack of support (guilty consciousnessess?) was shockingly continued.

I am astonished at how some women are treated in labour wards - like less than sentient animals at worst or cows at best - and it seems if they have a bad deal during labour the deal is they also get a bad deal post labour - this is a pattern I am staring to recognise just by reading stuff here on MN.

Manuka, I dont' know the answer to some of you questions. It took me ages to get anything via a pump but all the while DS was well satisfied though latching on was painful and I had blisters.

I did find that even when I got the hang of it I could only express when looking at a photo of my baby; without any 'connection' like that - even thinking aboyut him and relaxing helped - to it was impossible.

Of course you were fucked up - you ahd just been through major surgery and a birth to boot. You might still be suffering from that, from the lack of care and may be developing PND, just developing, you can nip it in the bud with ad's.

Please go to your GP - hopefully they wil be able to help you though this almost crimial, but all too common, neglect by maternity services.

There really needs to be a massive shake up in out materintiy wards.

To those other regulars who are reading this (though I''d forgive you not to bother) who was that regular who had a terrible time in the maternioty ward? Early admitted with pre-eclampsia - malicious midwives - baby talen away and then accused of neglect???

Manuka I'm so sorry - what an awful experience. I'm afraid I haven't got any words of wisdom, but agree with others who have suggested talking it through with a counsellor face to face. It might also help to find out if there is someone in charge of breastfeeding at that maternity unit and meeting them to discuss what happened.

I dont know whether this will help, as Im still only training to be a breastfeeding counsellor, but from what I do know is that plenty of sweet smelling mustardy type nappies means the baby is getting plenty of breast milk. This would indicate that you were producing. Could I ask why you were told to pump so much? If the baby fed, and then you pumped, you would get very little if anything through the pump as your baby would have just had a feed. But then the next time your baby came to feed your supply may have been increased due to the pumping (as your body would have thought it needed to increase the amount of milk) and so your baby would have taken more milk...and then you may have pumped again, but nothing may have come out as your baby had got there first. Does that make sense? Sorry if it sounds a bit long winded..just thinking out loud really. I dont know why your breasts didnt go hard/solid as that is quite common when your milk comes in on days 3-5, but the fact that other posters have mentioned that theres didnt just shows that it doesnt always happen that way. Im so sorry that you had such a crap ordeal and I would recommend talking to someone about it. I also think your local nhs pct should be aware of how your birth went, far too many incidents like this arise and nothing gets done.

Manuka, you need someone to listen to you one on one and I also agree that a bfing counsellor is a good place to start. You can also request copies your hospital notes. I also believe that you can get copies and any post natal notes from the community care you had as well. When I confided my own difficult delivery and post natal problems to a colleague, she recommended contacting the post natal leader with the NCT who can look at your notes and talk them through with you.

I have been advised by the consultant obstetrician overseeing my current pg that going through PALS is a paperwork exercise. If you would like your complaint to be taken more seriously, it is better to contact the head midwife at the hospital where you gave birth. She is in a better place to effect change than PALS.

good luck in coming to terms with your difficulties. I am, 3 yrs on, still trying to put my ghosts to rest.

manuka, we have spoken before about your birth

i really think it is time that you got some proper help debriefing, as this is all coming out now, and needs dealing with

part of the problem is that MWs are not always the best people to help with breastfeeding advice and support

having your breasts pulled around is quite an old fashioned way of doing things....

sounds like you did have milk, but had no faith left in yourself and no adequate support to continue breastfeeding. and that is really sad. you perservered after a hideous birth and were let down by the people caring for oyu

my offer to help you write to the hospital stands

email me or CAT me

mail @ mothering instincts. com

Thanks Lulumama I'll do that. You're very kind. I didn't want to 'put on you' before cos you must be overloaded with people asking you for help!!
Also I'm very grateful for everyone elses responses. Its helped me to see my boobs weren't 'broken' as I felt they were.
I don't know why I was given the pump at hospital. The midwives made me feel I wasn't producing milk.
Also I'd read so many baby books I thought that if I didn't get the big rock hard breast thing then I wasn't making milk. So I couldn't understand why I smelled of milk and why her poo smelled of milk. For 21 months I've been thinking that it was a weird freaky thing that happened.
I told dh about all of you who also didn't get engorged and he said my breasts were massive but I was so drugged up I actually can't remember that. I was given more morphine the day after op cos I was in so much pain.

I feel better knowing I could and did produce milk and glad that dd got some antibodies (and lots of opiates too which explains why she slept almost solidly for nearly 3 months!) but I also feel quite devastated to think that I could have fed her up to now and maybe that would have been better nourishment for her? She is a sturdy Viking type girl though so I know really that she's been totally fine on formula and she still loves it now.

I think its coming up now because all my lovely friends are having their 2nd babies and I just can't risk it. I wish I felt that I wanted to have another because we both wanted at least 2 and dh wants another and I'm 35 this year so I don't have years and years to wait. We moved into a bigger house for having children.

Anyway, thankyou for clearing up my mystery I will now email the angel known as Lulumama!

Just to echo what others have said. Milky poo coming out means milk was going in. Expressing can be a real hit or miss, it is in no way reflective of your milk supply. Often to express successfully, you need to be relaxed in order to get the letdown reflex going. I doubt very much, from what you have written, that you would have been relaxed! I also never got engorged and rarely felt 'full' with either of mine but fed DS until a year and DD (14 months) is still being bf.

If you want to blame anyone, blame your crapry birth and care postnatally. Oh, and manhandling women's boobs and nipples to 'help' breastfeeding isn't recommended, or necessary really.

Oh and PMSL at "sturdy Viking like girl" . We often refer to DD as our wee shotputter. She's short, not chubby, but very well built.

Thanks Suzi! I really believed that there was no milk! But now after reading all these posts I am surprised that I thought that. The bloody midwives would walk in unbutton my nighty and squeeze my nipples without even asking! If I'd been of sound mind they would have seriously regretted doing that!

Thanks! Thats very brave of you to have number 2. I'm sure it will be miles better than the 1st experience. Just emailed Lulumama, she's a real star isn't she?
It is hard to get help and yes thinking about it becomes too overwhelming. Just been to a birthday party and met an old school friend who had horrendous first birth and it took her a while to get over it and it helped to see her happy with her 2nd baby.

Manuka
I am so sorry for what you have had to deal with, and I think you are brave for facing your experiences and trying to make sense of them.
I had ds 4 months ago. It hurt like hell, but was overall a positive experience. On the whole my midwives were supportive and respectful of me. I had no help to breastfeed, but luckily ds knew what to do and we managed to muddle through.

I'm saying all this to encourage you that birth is not always an awful difficult thing. It made me feel sad that although yopu and your dh wanted more children, you can't face it. I wanted to let you know that honestly, sometimes birth is a positive experience. Maybe you would have a positive birth if you did decide to have another baby.

Please forgive me if any of this has been insensitive, but I had such an image in my head of you happy with another little newborn, with your dd all interested and excited to have a brother/sister. I really hope that happens for you if that is something yopu and your dh would like.

Thanks sushi that's so kind! I would really like to get over this. I even thought of adoption but dh isn't keen enough.
Its good to know that some people do have positive birth experiences. I don't think I'm ready to take a risk yet though. If we were loaded and could afford private midwives, obstetrician and a fleet of doulas then I wouldn't think twice!

Yes that's very true. I'd need to have a doula on 24hour availabilty from the moment of conception!
Knowing my luck, I'll go through all this and eventually get sorted and then I'll feel ready to have another and find that I've got no eggs left!!! Is there a test or scan that can tell you how many eggs are left? I've always felt I'm not far from menopause. Already got the burning hot night time situation going on which is a real pain in the arse.