Help! 4 day old baby not latching on

[skidoodle]

Hi there,

I've sometimes lurked around here while pregnant so I know how knowledgeable you guys are. I really could do with some advice.

My baby is only days old but breastfeeding is not going well. She didn't find it easy to latch on initially but we figured it out by day 2. Then my milk came in and we were pretty much back to square one. Or square minus one maybe. My breasts are engorged and according to the midwives in the hospital this means it is really hard for her to latch on as my nipples are too flat and the breasts are too hard.

I just got out of hospital today and although the midwives were very keen to help, I found a lot of their advice totally contradictory (e.g. told to wake her up, even by undressing her and putting her feet in cold water, every 3 hours to feed THEN when the shift changed a new midwife insisted I feed her every time she cried no matter what I thought the problem might be).

Anyway, over the last 2 days I've started expressing just so I can give her some milk as I've only occasionally managed to get her to feed and that has always been with a lot of physical help from a midwife. Now I'm home since earlier this evening. I've fed her expressed milk twice and tried her on the breast for a bit. She did her usual - sucked a little, seemed to latch on, then immediately broke the latch and started trying to chew on my nipple (did I mention how my nipples are all cracked and bleeding?)

So basically I'm really confused about what's going on with her, how I can get her feeding normally, why she's finding it so hard to latch on properly. The saddest thing is that when she does manage it, she's a great little feeder. It's breaking my heart seeing her constantly do little sucking motions with her mouth but when I put her on my breast she keeps pulling away from my nipple.

Oh, and re expressing to make it easier to latch on - just enough so that the breast feels softer and less uncomfortable. You don't need a pump or anything, you can do it in the shower or over a sink..

Also, re the helplines - I've used this one, try a few times and you should get through to someone

www.laleche.org.uk/pages/about/helpline.htm

Lastly, don't let your DH and your mum suggesting FF knock your confidence - there is something about a crying baby that makes even the kindest, best intentioned relation panic and suggest FF. Remind them that breastfeeding is a learned skill for both the baby and you and that you'll get there!

tiktok - I know you are an expert, but long term use of shields is possible. I have done it several times. Sometimes they CAN make the difference between feeding and not. I wish I had had a more positive info about them when I first started feeding - all the doom and gloom advice (largely based on the use of old latex shields) really didn't help at all. It just contributed to my feelings of failure.

Yes, they are fiddly and make feeding in public more tricky, but for me they enabled more than 12 months of feeding with them and subsequently 20+ months of feeding without them (spread over 3 children).

Get advice by all means, but really shields aren't necessarily so bad...

Skidoodle - re expressing - I needed to express a lot to get my boob soft enough to get my dcs latched on. Even then, with a larger nipple (I used a breast pump to express and it makes it bigger and harder , it still didn't work most of the time.
I always felt the 'problem' was my dc's iykwim. I know it is not right on to say this, and that bf is a dance yada yada yada. Hwr, my lot really couldn't get it, despite me having loads of info and second and third time round having been able to do it successfully before.
I have been told anecdotally that smaller babies are hard to feed - mine were small. That plus full boobs, flat nipples and dcs seeming clueless led to much frustration and sadness for me.
I had loads of support, tried everything, but my dcs needed the nipple shield interface and that was that!
Sorry turned into a rant.

I hope your issues are less intractable. MN is full of advice so you are in the right place .

taliac thanks for the other perspective on shields. I need to think about this.

tiktok I did mention my intention to use them to the midwife. She mentioned they might impede milk production but didn't seem terribly concerned about my decision otherwise.

I thought the order of things was to get the shields working then talk to a bf counsellor, but now I'm thinking it makes more sense to talk to the counsellor first and make the decision with input from someone more expert than I. No point in presenting a counsellor with a fait accompli in terms of shields when perhaps they might suggest other options initially.

OK I hear rooting about. Time for some skin2skin and practise latching

katepol, I know That's why I never say 'do not use shields ever under any circumstances'.

They are a tool, they can help in some circumstances, they have drawbacks, mothers need to know the full story....what's wrong with that?

I have seen the whole range of issues with shields, good and bad.

Hi skidoodle,

Congratulations! I know exactly how you feel it is really difficult in the first few weeks of bf and you get lots of advice.

I haven't read all the posts, but I had really engorged breasts and I used to find the milk would spurt all over the place and ds used to pull away if milk was coming out too fast. I used to soak a flannel in warm water before a feed, place it over the breast and then just allow the first spurt of milk to run onto it, then ds latched on no problems, my milk supply settled down after a week or 2
It will get easier I promise and I really hope you manage to get some local support.

Also ask your hv/mw for jelonet dressings, they are great for cracked nipples!

xxx

hi both my los had latching on probs when my milk came in and i had to express for a few mins til boob got softer and then they could latch on (i have a very fast let down which prob makes things more tricky for them as it sprays everywhere at first). This lasted for a few days.

My sister (i posted on here about a month ago)had problems feeding her baby once her milk came in she kept expressing and had to feed him expressed milk via a syringe, cup and then bottle for a few days and then on day 8 he got it and has been feeding well ever since from her.

x

meant to add she tried him on the boob at every feed when they were having probs but he kept latching on sucking for a few seconds and then coming on and then on day 8 bingo he got it and fed for 20 mins and they ahve been flying ever since

congratulations skidoodle.

Hope things are improving. I agree with the advice to feed lo before getting to the crying stage. My dd used to bounce her head on my shoulder (rooting??) when she was hungry, then moved to eating her hands (or trying to). Now at 8 1/2 mths she chews my shoulder or her toys in a certain way. You will get to know your lo's signals.

We had probs with latching when my milk came in. Nurse in SCBU advised massaging my boobs on the way down from the ward to make them softer and it easier for dd to latch on. Seemed to work, and rugby hold helped too. Was the most comfortable for both of us.

Expressing to release the pressure/hardness can help too, but I also wouldn't recommend bottle feeding unless you have to.

Good luck and you are doing great!

Hi Skidoodle

My dd (now 3 months) refused to feed off the boob in the hospital and screamed whenever my boob hoved into view until the milk came in. She was bottle fed (ff and EBM) for about the first fortnight but eventually we got her to be fully BF'd. I'm not sure if it had anything to do with the midwives not putting her straight on me after she was born- by the time they'd finished with me she'd nodded off in the cot! It can take a few weeks to get breastfeeding established, some are fortunate and get it done straight away but for me it took a while and 'help' from HV and midwives- who were keen proponents of BFing but a bit short on practical help- wasn't up to much. However there should be Breastfeeding clinics prob available in your local area (look in the front of the red book your HV/MW gave you for the baby and there should be numbers/addresses there) and they can be really good. It gets easier the more you do it or practice it.

BTW I found drying my nipples with the cold setting on a hairdryer or sitting in front of a fan helped toughen them up. Good luck and give yourself time x

Thanks you guys

I haven't heard back from the breastfeeding helpline, so this afternoon I called the la leche league. What a mistake that turned out to be. The first woman I spoke to was very encouraging, but she put me through to someone local and it was like being back in hospital. The woman I spoke to was so bossy. She was so appalled that I was feeding DD with a bottle it made me feel as if I was practically abusing her by using a "false nipple".

TBH I wasn't fully on board with the bottle thing, as I'm really concerned it will further confuse issues, but it has had positive effects, such as at least I know she's not starving. Actually on the basis of her advice I've decided to go back to using a cup (when I get one tomorrow) because I really don't want to spoil the chances of breastfeeding.

I just could have done without someone saying that every bottle I've given her is a nail in the coffin of my chances of ever breastfeeding. After all the advice from on here I really felt I would manage this if I persevered and didn't get too stressed and now I feel like I may have already made decisions that have destroyed my chances

thanks snarf and melfish, it's nice to read about people who managed to get it back after using bottles.

Melissa - see if she'd just said it like that about the bottles I wouldn't be feeling so rubbish now. I"m so afraid I've made this terrible mistake and ruined everything

Don't feel rubbish, you are doing brilliantly . Getting breastfeeding started is tough going.
Do you have Avent bottles? because if so then you can use the lid as a cup rather than buy one specially.
Doesn't sound like you are going to get on with your local La Leche league person- is there a breastfeeding cafe/clinic near you where you could go instead to get someone to look at your latch? or maybe phone the NCT line.
Your story sounds similar to mine- and the advice I would agree with is the expressing a bit off to soften boobs- I just did this using a hot flannel over the sink. I did get some nipple shields but couldn't get on with them but they did help get my nipple in more of the right shape, so for a few feeds I would have them on at the beginning and then remove them once nipple was ok- does that make any sense?? And then I felt more confident, and I think DD just learnt how to feed. I didn't know about mumsnet then and was too shy to go and talk to a counsellor and it took a lot of perseverance, but we are still going strong at 8 months.
Keep going, hope tonight goes ok

thanks wakeupeverybody will try the flannel thing for the next feed. also, I DO have Avent bottles. That's great to know about the lids.

I'm going to call the Breastfeeding co-ordinator at my hospital tomorrow. She was away for easter, so I never got to see her and I think it might be useful. The LLL lady did give me plenty of useful advice, like contacting her. I don't think we are a good fit, but she was trying to help. I do appreciate that. Hopefully I'll find a local BF counsellor who can help me.

I've been doing skin-to-skin today. I'm not sure how much she likes it. I love it though. She seems to get kind of distressed by my breast - as though she knows she's supposed to do something with it, but isn't sure what.

You haven't ruined things at all so don't cut yourself up over what was said(though I can see why you feel that way - where do they find these people?) You are doing brilliantly and what were you supposed to do...let her starve?

Try with the cup when you can and ring the BF counsellor again tomorrow. Try to get the latch sorted. Your lo is so small that it's ridiculous to think it's all over! Do hope the night goes ok...funny how life seems to take on a rosy hue when feeding goes well but seems all gloomy when it's frustrating. Will be thinking of you.

Skidoodle - your dd sounds SO much like mine. It really felt like she was rejecting the boob and just didn't know what to do, and so ended up getting distressed when she was near it - flinging her head around, arching her back etc etc.

I am not going to say do the shield thing again as I don't want your thread to turn into a theoretical argument as to their benefits, however I think it is worth remembering that things aren't set in stone. You can make 'mistakes' and move on (notwithstanding that it may be a hard road, but then, bf often is for a variety of reasons). As long as you have milk, then your dd can have some. Skin to skin etc will be good for that.

It is incredibly frustrating, but loads of babies take a while to get it sorted, so you are not alone...

None of my three would latch on once my milk was in, yet I ultimately bfed them until they self weaned (10-12 months or so). Just because the start is tricky does NOT mean all is lost. Be kind to yourself and I am sure you will find something that works for you both .

skidoodle, the LLL person should not react like that....it is not a good way to talk to people. You can feedback to the organisation about this.They will want to know.

Try NCT helpline tomorrow.

I sympathise about the LLL - I tried both their and the NCT helplines and they offered no practical help, just made me feel worse about the choices I had made. It felt like their aim was to make me feel SO bad about not being able to bfeed that I would be even more determined to do it .

I found a local bf cafe group was less militant and more pracgmatic and supportive. See if you have a local one - Sure Start areas often have them. I am NOT trying to offend any bf counsellors on here, but the ones I have encountered in RL have been so zealous as to be unhelpful. Peer supporters were more helpful and supportive imo.

I also found a bf bible at my local bf support group. I can't remember if it was a LLL one, but it was huge (bigger than A4) and thick, and packed full of useful info. Maybe tiktoc can advice on what it is called? It helped me identify that my dd2 tended towards being hypertonic, which also affected her feeding...(hyper or hypo - can't remember now, but she was rigid lol!)

Hope you have a good night

katepol - tell the organisations about the over-zealousness! All breastfeeding counsellors work within a supervision system and all the organisations welcome feedback, good and bad.

The book you mention is The Breastfeeding Answer Book - yes, a good resource, I agree.

tiktok - I know I am failing to keep this as a support thread for Skidoodle, but fwiw, I did contact the NCT about the bf counsellor that spoke to me. The NCT stance was that (like all NCT bf counsellors)she was a volunteer, was maybe having a bad day and that I could try again. Suffice to say when I encountered difficulties with my dd2 2 yrs later, I didn't try her again. I did come across her while being a class supporter to an NCT group and she was very militant and inflexible then too. She has retired now thankfully.

I did try to speak to LLL about their rude and dismissive attitude to my enquiry about feeding through mastitis (which I got some time after finishing with the shields). Hwr, there was never anyone there who could take my comment and I gave up trying after a couple of goes...

I really feel that good support for bf is vital for so many women, and so love to see it in action here. I personally was just disappointed in rl. I hope skidoodle is more fortunate, there IS more support out there now than there was a few years ago, but it may be worth trying to contact a couple of places if you don't get on with the first person you speak to.

Nuff said, am off to bed. Will check in tomorrow Skidoodle, to see how you are

katepol, thanks for the further detail. I can't speak for LLL, but NCT will have taken your comments on board, I can assure you. We do investigate, and often take it further with the counsellor concerned because the counsellor has the right to know if someone has made a comment about her, and of course, she may need some input from her supervisor.

It's a real shame your experience was not good, and thanks for trying to make it better for others.

hi i posted here yesterday. My sister had to give him a bottle as he was losing so much weight and was not drinking well enough from a cup to gain enough weight but she persevered and offered the boob at every feed, i think her boobs were so full that he just could not get on and once she started expressing for the bottles her boobs calmed down and he could latch back on.

x

By jove, she's done it

Just up after a 25 minute breastfeeed

We had a kind of stressful night. We decided (well I did, but DH went along with it) to go back to cup feeding. She really hates it (although perhaps that's the point) and she puked and kept getting hiccups. I got her to sleep in the bed with us and then she woke around 6 and had more cup feed as she was hungry and I expressed some more.

I settled her in her cot once we were done, I guess around 7 and we all slept until 9ish, when I woke up for the bathroom and decided I would wake her up and do skin-to-skin. I've been doing this since yesterday, and not really worrying much about getting her latched on but just so the two of us can snuggle and enjoy each other with no pressure.

So we cuddled for an hour or so and occasionally she'd root around and I'd try to put her on the nipple, but wasn't really worrying too much about feeding her as she didn't seem really hungry or anything. Then my aunt rang as she had problems getting her daughter to latch on, and she gave me some tips. One of these was to tease her with the nipple but not put it in her mouth unless it was really wide open. I'm sure people have said similar things to me, but for some reason when she said it I got it, iyswim.

So she started rooting about for the nipple and I just did the teasing/open mouth thing and after a while she latched on and fed really well - all wide open mouth and big gulps and it didn't hurt at all. Never has something felt so normal and so wonderful at the same time. I'm so proud of her

My breast feels great now - all empty. Expressing didn't seem to do that.

Community midwife just visited and she's put on weight since we left hospital, so I'm glad about that. I was pretty sure she was getting enough food though as between feeds she has been settled.

Anyway, a great morning chez doodle so far. Thanks so much for all your help. I know we still have a long way to go to get this sorted but it definitely feels like we're making progress.

I used so many of the suggestions from here and will probably go on to use many more. DH definitely looked at me askance when he saw me blow drying my boobs earlier on.

Righto, time for me to eat and then back to bed for more babymooning. See if we can maybe manage a feed on the other side.

for baby doodle

(No need to dry your breasts with a hair dryer - that's something entirely optional! It used to be advised 15 or so years ago and is still 'out there' but there is no evidence it does any good, and for sore nipples, it may do harm. )

Well done Skidoodle and dd!! Fabulous news! Hope this is the corner turned for you.
Now, back to bed both of you!

Skidoodle : I've been following this cos I struggled to feed for a few days but had help in hospital.

Reading about your success (while watching 10 week old DS snoring )just made me fill up with tears!

Congratulations and I hope it continues well