Latching on - how to make DS open his mouth??

[Sallypoo]

Hi all,

I am becoming desperate and considering dropping the bf. DS and I have had a run of problems... born at 36+6 so tube fed, then because early didn't know how to suckle so advised to use nipple shields from day 5 and sent home on day 6 not really knowing how to feed without them....

Then in week 2 I got mastitus because I'd expressed in hospital but DS couldn't get the milk out. As a result of the antibiotics my milk supply dropped so had to top up with formula after every feed.

We're now in Week 9. The positives are that DS is gaining weight well. I've dropped the nipple shields and my milk has increased as a result of the stimulation - not enough yet to drop the bottles of formula but I do feel like we're making progress.

However, because DS hasn't had to open his mouth particularly wide for the shields - you can just open about 2 - 3cm, he's lost the instict to do it, and my nipples are getting so sore I can't face the thought of him latching on. I chickened out last night and went back to using the shields to give my nipples a rest.

I've got small boobs, and fairly flat nipples, and a baby who doesn't seem keen on opening up. I've watched a few videos and have adjusted his position slightly today so that his neck is more extended... and I'm prepared to perserve for a week or two more... but the present situation isn't sustainable.

I don't know where to turn for advice. The breastfeeding councillor wants me to stop the bottles, and I would too, but not until I know he's feeding off me. He was only 6lb and at that weight it seemed crazy to risk him loosing weight. He's up to nearly 10lb now, but as he's gaining a lb a week he's hungry and certainly not getting anywhere near enough of me - I top him up with upto 3oz per feed.

Any ideas? The routine is taking an hour per feed because we're feeding off both boobs and then a bottle, and we're still feeding every three hours...

I feel so useless and frustrated that I can't achieve this one task.... and that plus now being sore and having a baby who just doesn't know what he's meant to be doing - what a mess.

Sallypoo

Hi all

As promised here's an update. I went to the NHS breastfeeding clinic on Friday, and was one of 5 mums there by the time it opened at 2.30pm. There were two very nice and knowledgable breastfeeding advisors on hand.

I met with a lady who teachs other midwives about breastfeeding so was particularly lucky to have access to her considerable knowledge and experience. She listerned to DS and my problems, made no comment on the fact that I was topping up, and then watched us nurse.

She paid attention to the positioning and the latch, and concluded that DS wasn't extending his neck enough nor opening his mouth enough.

We then took him off and he decided to cry, at which point she became very interested in his mouth and tongue. She agreed that when he cries he opens his mouth wide but not deep, and then also spotted that he has a mild tongue tie....

She explained there was no way we would be able to successfully breastfeed, and that DS wouldn't have put on anywhere as near as much weight without topping up. The releif of knowing that there are actual reasons for us struggling was immense.

We're getting a referal for DS's tongue tie, which will hopefully be in a couple of weeks, and the advisor also said that the Cranial Osteo we're going to see on Monday is great, and that she believes he will be able to help DS.

She has said that until we have addressed these problems we should continue with nipple shields as DS will just continue to chew at my nipples because a) he can't open his mouth enough to get hold of my aerola, and b) he can't get a successful latch because his tongue can't get under the aerola, hence the gum chewing on the underside of the nipple....

So now I know it's worth hanging in there until we have got these probelms resolved. At that point, it might be that DS can't be "retrained" but at least I'll know that he's had his tongue tied resolved, and any birth distress looked at by the Cranial Osteo... and the benefit of some breast milk for the first 3 or 4 months of his life.

Thanks for all your support, and I'll let you know how the Cranial Osteo appointment goes. Ladies, if there is one thing I have learnt from this experience its that although telephone helplines have their place, they can't replace face to face support. If you are lucky enough to have similar drop in sessions go, even if you think you are doing OK - you can never have too much help....

Sallypoo

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Sally,
great to hear that you are finally getting to the route of the problem, only sorry that I didn't have the better info to give you 6 weeks ago!
there are a few cambridge MN's going to cheeky monkeys in Fulbourn for a play session next friday ( I know the little one won't be going down the slides ) but if you fancies putting a face to some of the names you are chatting to it could be fun.

if you fancy going let me know and we can coordinate geting there.

How did you cranio appointment go Sally?

Hi all

Have been to see Mark Deora and he started work on DS today. We will be having our next appointment on Friday, with a total of four. Neck movement was improved today, so am confident that the Cranial Osteopathy will help.

Had contacted GP to make referal for tongue tie late friday. I've just called as I'd asked them to let me know when referal had been made and it's still not been done. Don't these people realise that speed is of the essence when it comes to breastfeeding?

Anyway will call GP again tomorrow....

Thanks Pruners for the links. Unfortunately all the places are some distance from Cambridge. I will chase GP again tomorrow, but I don't think we'll get seen in under two weeks unless I go private.... I look into this though, as if GP hasn't even done letter getting seen next week looks a bit hopeful!

Thanks
Sallypoo

Sallypoo

A breastfeeding counsellor should be able to refer you for the tongue-tie. I didn't even bother with my GP because I just knew it would be a slow battle. The counsellor phoned through and it was done in under a week. You may have to travel, but compared to the problems you've been having I'm sure you'll find it is worth it. My son's feeding improved immediately that he had it separated.

I feel so sad that you've tried so hard, and put up with the pain for this long, for you to have to wait even longer .

Well done for persevering!

How did you get on today sally - any joy with the GP?

Hi Sallypoo - have just been linked to your thread while looking for MNers with experience of tongue tie. My DD was born on New Year's Day and like you I have had constant BF traumas and reached point of giving up. Tongue tie was confirmed by BF counsellor on Friday and she is making referral, hopefully for this week. Have you made any progress with GP?

Hi all

Sorry I've not been online for a few days...

Thanks for all the messages.

WetT-shirt BFC told me to go to GP, as BFC didn't seem to be able to do referals... However GP was great, phoned after hours on Monday night and said referal would go off Tuesday morning - I got a call from Addenbrookes on Friday morning and DS is booked in for this Wednesday.

IF consultant thinks tongue-tie needs to be 'fixed' he will do it there and then...

Hi Fleacircus - wow, our babies were only born a day apart! My son was born 30 Dec! Great to know we're not doing this alone isn't it? I hope you too are making some progress? Has anyone discussed the 'retraining' baby will need after tongue-tie snip?

I'll let you all know how Wednesday goes, as the day approaches, I must admit to becoming increasingly nervous.... What it they don't do it? Guess we'll cross that bridge if and when we come to it...

Cranial Osteopath has also been working on DS, some progress after two appointments with two more booked. He certainly has more left-right movement in his neck now, although the opening the mouth and extending the neck back hasn't improved.

I'll look at the other thread and make sure I update you all on Wednesday, after the Addenbrookes appointment.

Thanks for all your support
Sallypoo

Hi there,

Well we're back from Addenbrookes and our appointment with Mr Samuals.

I am pleased to say that he did the snip without any need for persuasion - it was very quick and although DS did cry he was soon feeding and seemingly had forgotten all about it.

We've done one proper feed since and things do seem better, I can feel his tongue now, and he has managed to get some of my areola into his mouth. Because we've been using nipple shields since day 5 (as advised) I think it will take a few days to 'retrain' DS to open his mouth etc... but yes, definite progress.

Thank you all for all your support, and good luck Fleacircus - for the time it took to do the procedure it's got to be worth a try.... after 10 weeks of perseverance.

Spread the word ladies, if we can stop one mum and baby going through this it will be worth it!

I'll drop another message early next week to tell you how we're progressing.

Sallypoo

Hi all,

Well I know its only been a few days, but wanted to let you know how its been going.

I've slowly reduced the use of nipple shields with varying success, and so went to see the Breastfeeding counsellor on Friday. She was trying to be helpful, but yet again, as a result of her evangelical approach, I nearly throw in the towel.

Luckly DH is very supportive and told me to ignore her 'advice'. Basically she told me the only way I would get DS to latch on was to stop giving him formula (again) eventhough I still haven't been shown how to BF by a pro...

I told her I wanted to drop shields first then reduce formula and her reply was 'it won't work'.... I said that to allow DS to cry it out (yes this was her suggestion AGAIN) wasn't acceptable to DH and I and that this would push us toward formula feeding, to which she said I was in the 'wrong place' to discuss it!

So we've ignored her and dropped the shields this weekend and DS is feeding off my nips without much problem. Its only a few days, but I'm feeling much more positive now, and will write and tell the Counsellor that her preaching the formula is the sporn of satan isn't helping anyone! Why oh why do people have to make BF such a clean cut subject? There are so many of us out there having problems, why can't they just give the help we need, in my case just show me how to position and latch on properly?

Anyway I'll do without the pro support! GP and HV have been great, so not all bad.... and the Counsellor who did spot the tongue-tie will be getting a big thank you letter from me....

Will post an update next week.

Sallypoo

Slight hijack here...
I have had similar problems since my Dd was born in Dec 06. She has a small mouth and I have huge nipples. She sucks my nipple into her mouth and so doesn't usually(even now)take the areola into her mouth. I was also on antibiotics through my labour and have had internal breast thrush which made my nipples extra sore on the inside IYSWIM. I'm currently experiencing the 5th time of extremely painful nipples, so I fully empathize with you Sallypoo. I too dread the latch on.
It could be argued that at almost 15 months, I could stop breast feeding, but I feel that neither of us are ready yet, though I have thought about in in the last couple of days.
I looked on another thread and found a link to a site that sells Silverettes and I've just bitten the financial bullet and ordered some. They are reduced at the moment too and I guess that I'm saving bundles by breast feeding Dd anyway...well that's my justification .I've been quite determined to continue, so I'm hoping these cups will help... I'll try to report back.
I hope you get sorted too and stay sorted. It can be sooo disheartening when you are faced with certain pain so many times each day.
I hope you are able to continue for as long as you want to bf too Sallypoo. Good luck.

OOOPS! sorry, just realised that I didn't see page 2 and that you'd finally got baby sorted! I'm so pleased for you!

Hi Sally,
Well done for getting this far, I have been watching your thread with interest.

I am interested to know what further support / information you are wanting?
Ways of making things work have been suggested, and you have decided for your family circumstances that you aren't going to go down that route, from what I understand there are a few things that could work in this situation but they have already been suggested.

It is all about personal choice but sometimes our choices can mean that options are taken away. You have chosen not to reduce the formula, nor to let him be a little unsettled after a breastfeed, these choices may take away your option of breastfeeding. If that is something you are comfortable about that is ok.

I guess what I am saying is just for you to be aware that by turning down the well documented researched ways of re-establishing breastfeeding you may well be turning down the option of making breastfeeding work.

Please don't feel that I am having a go at you, it was not my intention. I wish you all the best with your little one.

Hi all

Just a quick update. I've dropped the shields, and DS is making good progress with his technique of feeding off the breast.

I hope that in a week or so I'll be able to now start reducing the formula as my milk supply as started to increase as a result of dropping the shields...

Boobiemilkmaid, that main suport I could of done with but never got was how to position baby and latch-on'. I didn't really get this in hospital nor from Midwife or BFC.

However, having perserved and got help from friends - thanks Jinglejen, I think we're there.

Research is well and good, but if you have a mum tellig you her 9 weeks worth of experience ie her milk supply won't increase if she continues to use shields, and still its ignored then thats not helpful. I do not doubt that the BFC meant well, but it just wasn't practical. Especially being told that I WILL fail. I also wanted to discuss formula feeding if I was goign to fail and was told 'I was in the wrong place'. Again not really that supportive.

Alls well that ends well though. DS is getting a good feed, I'm not in too much pain and we're making good progress.... I just hope others out there are as lucky.

Thanks all,
Sallypoo

ALright my lovely...

Good to hear things are going better.. you around over easter? got a mad day tomorrow (hopefully see you Thursday) but if you fancy a cuppa some time aside from Monkeys let me know

Fab news! Sallypoo!

Got my nip cups this morning! very strange, look like I've got huge and permanently erect nipples! hope they work

Didn't see you Thursday.. everything ok Sally?