Please give me some hope. Week old baby won't breast feed yet.

[IamnotwhouthinkIam]

He latches but won't suck - well has one strong pull and then it just feels like he's mouthing the nipple and eventually falls asleep/detaches despite ticking feet/hands, undressing him so he's slightly chilly and wakes up etc. I never see any milk on his mouth despite putting him to breast for about 10 mins each side before I pump breast milk and bottle feed him formula or the expressed milk (combi feeding as I don't get enough milk to only give him what I expressed).

He was a c section delivery at 38 weeks - he needed extra oxygen at first. So we have only been home for a few days as he had to stay in due to some fluid on the lungs (I had polyhydramnios), possible antibiotics needed, probable jaundice - but after 4 days they said they were satisfied he was safe to come home.

They insisted he was bottle feed from day 1 in the hospital as I had gestational diabetes and so they wanted to keep an eye on his weight in case of low blood sugars- donor milk at first, then formula when we were due to come home.

So I pump for at least 20 mins every 3 hours but only get about 25 mls total each time so far. I think increasing it will make my nipples even sorer and he was losing weight so they said to increase the formula instead.

So any hope please? I would love to be able to just feed him from my breasts alone. But I think he will never really learn to suckle (and thus naturally increase my milk production?) unless he stops having the bottle which is obviously easier to drink to drink from and takes less effort for him. But catch 22 I can't halt the bottles in case he loses more weight (they are coming to weigh him again today as he has already lost 8% of his birth weight .)

Suckling is hard work for babies when they’re tiny. It might be worth asking your midwife about nipple shields if you haven’t discussed them already. I used these for a couple of weeks with bottle top ups, until DD was able to build up strength and learn to suckle on her own. The extra pointy shape pokes the right bit at the back of their mouths and prompts them to keep going. They have some pros and cons but can help in the right situation.

Also how about a check for tongue tie?

Poor you, sounds like you’ve had a rough time!

I was in almost your exact situation except baby was premature and growth restricted. Nipple shields and pumping for every formula feed got things going, plus fenugreek. If you can, staying in bed with an open shirt and not wearing deodorant are supposed to help. Baby went from the 24th to 96th percentile in two months and bf until 3y, from very unpromising beginnings.

You could try the Medela nursing supplemental system with formula or the milk you have expressed, it makes breastfeeding more rewarding initially to get their interest going. Milk starts coming out immediately rather than waiting for letdown. It's pricey but worked for me.

Has baby been checked for tongue tie?
My son would latch but not actually feed. Nipple shields helped!

An SNS can allow him to have the milk he needs to grow and have energy to suck while also allowing as much time on the breast as possible for stimulation and getting him to like the breast. The best thing though is to contact either LaLeche League or a IBCLC for one to one support

I bought one of these and it catches the milk dripping from one side when you feed from the other so it doesn't get wasted. I didn't get sore like I did with a pump. I would really recommend it

amazon.co.uk/NatureBond-Silicone-Breastfeeding-Air-Tight-Hardcover/dp/B01LZ2ZVCY/ref=mp_s_a_1_1_sspa?crid=4L0MWJF3T5JT&keywords=nature+bond+suction+pump&qid=1644253897&sprefix=nature+bond%2Caps%2C78&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExQjVCUlZHTkFLRlhLJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwNTI1NTEyMzhXRTZOVDRLNzcxMiZlbmNyeXB0ZWRBZElkPUEwNzQ4MTAyMjlQUDkwVVNWRTRZNCZ3aWRnZXROYW1lPXNwX3Bob25lX3NlYXJjaF9hdGYmYWN0aW9uPWNsaWNrUmVkaXJlY3QmZG9Ob3RMb2dDbGljaz10cnVl]]

I found breast compressions helpful for getting started - I also had a c section

Hi OP. I had this issue. I got a latch at 2.5 months. I also pumped my supply up from 25mL to 900mL/day to be able to feed my baby and get her off formula a month before she latched. I did a few things which I think helped... I'll try and dig out somewhere I put it all as I was making it into an e-book to try and sell.

Here:

Hello. I had this very issue.

So my baby did not latch until 3.5 months. (I got her to latch via a few techniques which I can take you through if you want)

My supply was LOW so I had to work hard to get the supply up to feed her nothing but breastmilk (my goal)

I got to this stage at about 2.5 months. Before that she was having 1 - 2 180mL bottles/day which broke my heart. She would gulp it down fast and be very red afterwards, but sleep all night long (which is not good of course)

1. Pump, pump, pump and massage as you pump. Get every last drop out. Get a Spectra S2 if you think you will be pumping long-term, it's the best double pump. Pump whenever you have a free moment.

1. Log your output. If you log then every time you pump say 'I'm going to make 10mL extra this time' you WILL get yourself to that extra 10mL and you CAN turn 20mL into 30mL into 60mL and get enough to feed your baby.

1. I took supplements, so can't pinpoint which of these worked or if any worked (it could all have been down to my pumping) BUT because I chose each one based on multiple endorsements from other mothers in the same situation (I consumed the YouTube back catalogue, every woman who had put her ways and means of doing what I was aiming to do; increase my supply)

I chose

Fenugreek - 6 tablets every 6 hours
Brewers' Yeast - 4 tablets every 6 hours
Sunflower lecithin (which thins the milk so makes it easier to come out, also helps avoid blockages which are more common when you pump) 3 tablets every 6 hours

I ate oats in abundance as they are "galactagogues" and I tried Guinness (which is rancid) but these are more add-ons and an excuse to get people to buy me Hob Nobs.

All this combined (but probably mostly the pumping) got my supply up from 50mL/day to 950mL/day which was enough to fully feed my baby! I was over the moon.

One day, after I was doing a few other things, she latched out the blue 　 I was so over the moon, and I even gave the pump to another mum 　

I fed her until 4.5 and hand on heart it has done her the world of good.

As for the latch please look at "rebirthing" to erase birth trauma and don't try to force baby to latch. INstead go around with boobs out and pump in front of baby. Baby will get the idea, they are clever.

@MoreThanRubies

Suckling is hard work for babies when they’re tiny. It might be worth asking your midwife about nipple shields if you haven’t discussed them already. I used these for a couple of weeks with bottle top ups, until DD was able to build up strength and learn to suckle on her own. The extra pointy shape pokes the right bit at the back of their mouths and prompts them to keep going. They have some pros and cons but can help in the right situation.

Also how about a check for tongue tie?

Poor you, sounds like you’ve had a rough time!

They don't actually suck. They move their tongue about and that stimulates the milk to come out then they swallow. They have an innate need to do this which is why they like a dummy if they can't access a boob, they are just biologically programmed to do this action neurologically. They can't not do it. Look into tongue tie.

As PP's have said ask the midwife to check for tongue tie- the doctor that checked my little one at the hospital said couldn't see tongue tie but then midwife who came to the house a couple of days later did, I questioned why the doc hadn't seen it and she said even if they do they will never tell you as they don't where you are with feeding at that point so don't want to make you feel bad if you're struggling with it. My DD is 3 weeks now and I was doing the same as your with combi feeding but have now gone to full formula as my milk just isn't there anymore! X

A friend of mine's baby struggled to latch and would only stay on for around 5-10 minutes. She took him to a cranio-osteopath who saw him for two sessions, after the first he fed for 40 minutes and they've been feeding successfully ever since (baby is now 7 months)

It is normal for babies to lose weight at the start. It took three weeks for my first dd to be back to her birth weight. The docs were pressuring me but I paid to see a breastfeeding consultant, she was absolutely wonderful. She noted that dd had a slight tongue tie, and worked out a plan that I could show the Doctors, that predicted her reaching her birth weight by three weeks, exactly right. She gave me a lot of support and encouragement, it was the best money I ever spent on anything. So if you can afford it I think this might really help you. She visited me at home ( and in hospital when dd and I were readmitted) .

Thank you so much for the replies, hope and help everyone . Sorry I couldn't reply before - we had to take DS back to the hospital on the advice of the community midwife to check for the jaundice worsening and due to the increased weightloss (so we were there all day) and have another midwife visit today. Luckily we didn't have to stay in - the jaundice was worse but still not bad enough to need lamps.

For the first time there the feeding lady agreed with me he is not latching properly and getting very little if anything from me - she suggested trying nipple shields too so I have ordered some MAM ones to try since those are the bottles we use. She also suggested trying to "power pump" - so more often during the day and less at night (in the hope I will start to get more than an hours sleep here and there because this isn't sustainable long term) so will try that too.

I just wish at least the bottle feeding would be easier - he is supposed to be taking at least 70 mls 3 hourly but starts to refuse the last 20mls despite lots of winding breaks and will sometimes vomit it up when pushed or just refuse to swallow. Community midwives strongly suggested faster number 2 teat but that seemed to just cause more regurgitation at the end and doctors/hospital midwives said 0 or or number 1 teat only (everyone contradicts each other - community midwife insisted he was getting some milk from my breast but he seems to "fake" swallow - he does this on the bottle too).

Anyway have been reading La Leche league pages - thank you for the rec. Unfortunately due to rural living nearest groups are at least 25 miles away so in person support wont be practical if I'm pumping nearly every 2 hours. I considered fenugreek and other supplements but kind of feel like I need the advice of a professional on that - as I read they could also have the opposite effect and reduce milk and I'm nervous of that. Although my budget isn't this best, I wish I knew of a good lactation consultant near me - I'm in North Wales (about 40 mins from Chester where I had the c section).

Thank you again for all the help. At worse if I can keep the pumping up for another week or two at least he will have had the benefits of all the early milk. At best, maybe the nipple shields when they arrive will work and he will latch and the increased pumping will also mean enough milk comes in and he might actually feed from me instead. But the dual feeding isn't sustainable long term for me - I need more than 2 hours sleep a night!

A week is very early days for some babies in breastfeeding.

DD and I had a bad start to breastfeeding. Unfortunately the combi feeding doesn't help. We were in a similar position in that the hospital had insisted I top her up with formula. She only made more effort to breastfeed once I removed the formula.

Hopefully the nipple shields will help. If not and you can possibly get to see a lactation consultant this should be money well spent.

It took us until 7 weeks to full establish good breastfeeding. I had to pump a lot to stimulate my supply. I just didn't produce loads (ie, never leaked) but I did produce enough for DD and eventually she did well purely breastfeeding.

My advice is don’t be hard on yourself. Pump what you can and top up with formula. You’ve had a tough start and need to look after yourself mentally too. Baby is getting a good mix of milk. What you’re trying to do caused me PND. I wish someone had told me it was ok not to exclusively breastfeed.

Thanks again all Its only been a day, but I'm feeling a tiny bit more optimistic - the nipple shields arrived and do seem to have helped. My breasts feel less lumpy/swollen and there were definite trickles out of his mouth/in the shields - so although I still don't feel any "let down" as such and have no idea how much he's actually getting, I think he is at least getting some (as there is less after pumping when he has been suckling for 20 mins/half an hour first - sad in some ways as I'd prefer to top him up with just expressed rather than formula and that's not possible on 20mls per half hour pump despite breast massage!).

He might still eventually have to be solely formula bottle fed if I don't produce more milk now he's sucking better or we stop the formula and he loses weight, but it's encouraged me to keep going a few days longer at least as I was very close to giving up.

But I'll just have to ignore what they say about pumping at least 8 times a day to produce more milk (including a couple of times at night) and just do as many as I can plus more time on the breast now with the shields. If I do only 5 times during the day and once at night I might stand a better chance of surviving this without PND (as I could feel myself heading that way on only 2 or 3 hours sleep a night as I'm teary and despondent so often).

Pumping is just too time consuming with the cleaning/sterilizing on top - for the first time in over a week I actually left the house for a walk yesterday, even though it meant missing a pump by the time we got him all ready to go - but I felt much better for it.

Thanks again everyone

Oh hurray! So glad to hear this. You’re doing brilliantly. Pumping is hard, so it’s very wise to take steps to protect your mental health and do whatever you need to enjoy time with your lovely baby.

This is lovely to read OP. It all sounds really promising.

I never got a noticeable ‘let down’ but DD got what she needed. After a rocky start she was EBF from something like 5 weeks and I BF until 23 months. You don’t need to be producing so much that they’re spluttering or you’re leaking.

A few more days getting into the rhythm of it and hopefully you’ll see signs that baby is relaxed and sated after a breast feed.

Hope it doesn’t sound patronising but well done! I found establishing breastfeeding stressful and upsetting and it sounds like you’ve had a breakthrough

Lots of skin to skin should help.

Do you know you don't have to wash/sterilise the pump in between sessions? It is ok to store in a zip lock bag in the fridge and use for 24 hours. Also look at your baby or photos/videos when expressing- hormonal response should help get milk flowing.

Have you tried pumping for a couple of mins before trying to latch him? So you should already be having a let down and he gets milk quicker which might stimulate him to feed.

I would keep at it and don't be disheartened when you don't get much through expressing, not everyone does.

Hi @IamnotwhouthinkIam I was wondering how your getting on?
I’m currently in a very similar situation with my 1 week old. He has a tongue tie that won’t get seen to for weeks and after some bad nipple trauma where I lost a chunk of nipple I’ve had to turn to formula.
Only problem is he won’t drink the fill bottle most of the time and he always seems to throw up (more than just a bit of spit) nearly every feed no matter how slowly, how much I wind him etc.
I’m doing my best to pump but between everything else and still reliving the traumatic birth, I’m struggling to fit it in as well as the fact I don’t get much at all. Wondering if it’s even worth my time and mental health to keep trying to pump for the sake of half an ounce to an ounce on a good day.

Thanks again to everyone for their help and advice. I have read all your helpful comments- thanks so much, just had no chance before to update.

@Pizzaandsushi - Sorry to hear you are going through the same thing . A couple of different midwives/doctors have checked my DS for tongue tie so I'm hoping it hasn't been missed. Unfortunately while the nipple shields seem to help my DS with latching, he is still too lazy/sleepy to actually suck much - a couple of sucks and then he falls asleep/comes off no matter how much I try to wake him.

I think it is just too much effort for him for not enough milk - pumping for 30mins gets me just 30 ml (1 oz) if I've had a break between for 3/4 hours , or pumping for half the time/or every 1/2 hrs gets me half that (so half an oz). So I am lucky if he has enough for 2 bottles of expressed milk a day - not enough to breast feed him on/solely bottle feed him on and I am not sure it will ever increase enough as I just hate the feel of the pump so much and he barely sucks the breast to increase it that way..

But fingers crossed now at 12 days old he has now stopped losing weight/ is gradually increasing back towards his birth weight with formula. Over the last couple of days he is now gradually increasing amounts and because the bottle is quicker/easier for him now as he gains strength, he only falls asleep a couple of times during his bottle feeds which is progress. He also used to throw up too afterwards a lot more than he does now (although keeping him upright for 10 mins or after feeds does help a bit with that), but that has lessened each day as he's got older, so maybe it will for your DS too?

I understand how you are feeling though, about the lack of time/breast feeding problems - I'm still feeling despondent too. I'm incredibly lucky my birth partner does the vast majority of the formula bottle feeds and nappy changes, while I get on with pumping/skin to skin/time on the nipple shields - I would have given up otherwise long before now myself.

So with the minor improvements in DS other feeding although not my milk yet, I think I'm going to try to keep going just another week or two - to see if his sucking gets better as he gets naturally stronger/less sleepy/hopefully weight increases/jaundice goes. But if my milk keeps decreasing or nothing else changes, I'll give up. As you said, even with my birth partners help we don't have a life at the moment - the dogs aren't walked, no visitors, going out to the supermarket/hospital means the pumping/feeding/skin to skin schedule is thrown off. We get 3-4 hours total sleep in bits and have to fit in meals where we can - it's unsustainable longer term. He either needs to breast feed on demand and get enough or only formula bottle feed larger amounts every 4 hours or so, in order that we have a life.

I think we have to tell ourselves at least we've managed more than some women are able to (due to illness, family commitments etc) and have managed to pump and give him all that important yellowy colostrum? My milk is turning white now, so at least I've managed that.

Sorry about such a long post, I just suspect i won't get the chance to post again for a while and wanted to update/say thanks!

@IamnotwhouthinkIam that’s fantastic news he’s putting weight back on and closer to his birth weight.
I feel like everything you just wrote could be me saying it. Our baby is slowly putting on weight with the formula and I’m really hoping he’s back at his birth weight by day 11/12 when he’s weighed.
It’s glad to here your little one is throwing up less and less as days go on. I find it so disheartening when I think we’ve had a successful feed only for that to happen. He is producing lots of dirty nappies and I try to focus on that and assume he’s fed enough.

I think I’ll do the same regarding pumping. It really does eat me up inside but I’ve truly given it a go as best I can and I need to make peace with it if I can’t. If he took the bottles more smoothly I don’t think I’d be anywhere near as stressed.

Agreed about the no life too. I’ve not washed my hair in 2 weeks! Meals are small and rushed it’s not feasible for me to try and get pumping to work too.

Anyway I’m glad to hear things are looking more positive for you and good luck!

@crispmidnightpeace
can you tell me about your breastfeeding journey. My son was tongue tied and divided at 1 week but he has never suckled even with Nipple shields and is now 4 weeks old, I’m not sure if I’m fighting a losing battle. Was your baby the same before he did latch and breastfeed?

Saw a new post so just thought I'd update my thread, in case it helps others in future or gives some hope.❤I don't get on mumsnet very much anymore as DS is now 16 months old (and super active and causing chaos) - and amazingly is still breastfeeding* *😱

Thank you so much for everyone's support in the early days

My story is that I kept up the not-so effective pumping and using nipple shields and also kept taking them off to try him without (with little success) - but then incredibly at about 6 weeks old ish (I think? That time is a blur) he suddenly latched to the bare nipple when I tried an awkward rugby hold position for a change😁. He much preferred the bare skin once he realised it was nicer/easier to get milk and from then on he fed happily in whatever hold I found easiest (usually cradle). I don't know why he suddenly did it- if it was him getting older and so more capable, the change in position (I had tried it before, but not often), if he was extra hungry or just plain luck!

I worried I didn't have enough milk so he still mixed fed for about another 6 weeks but now that he was regularly feeding at the bare nipple the HV's finally agreed to refer me to a lactation consultant. I tried fenugreek for 2/3 weeks (made DS windy but did seem to help increase my milk I think) and the lactation consultant also helped a bit with his latch - it was/is still not the best but at least she was super encouraging and I felt much more positive that we would get there. We gradually reduced the bottles and by 12 weeks he was solely breastfed and seemed to get enough milk even with his rubbish/uncomfortable latch 😲(and no more of the hateful pumping!)

Thanks again to everyone on this thread for all the suggestions and support! 😘