Milk supply

[smerchant]

Hello,
This is my first post so please go easy on me even if i sound stupid. Its a bit long...

My baby is 11 weeks old and i had a very traumatic birth experience. I was in labour for 5 days and during birth i was not able to push out (maybe exhausted for being in labour for 5 days) and i had ventose delivery. Baby was healthy 9lbs in weight. but then i heamaoraged badly and lost quite a bit of blood. I was given transfusion and morphin for pain relief. Morphin was worst thing that happend as i lost control over my body and when nurse asked me if i want to breast feed, I had to say no as i had no energy or control to hold my baby (i wanted to breastfeed from day 1 and it ddnt happen).I felt very bad but since morphin effect was so strong i slept for 10-12 hours and when i woke up, my baby already had 2-3 feeds of formula. I started breastfeeding but baby was used to bottle so it took 2 days to get him to latch and suck properly.
Then i came home and contd bf but baby was losing weight and was sick all the time.After several visits to gp and two visit to casualty, we found that baby had pyloric stenosis and would need operation. So we had to go thru that. During operation also when i couldnt bf , i used hospital pump to keep up my supply. all was fine but then my baby and I developed thrush and bbay was given nystatin (didnt work) then daktrin (didnt work) and even fluconazole. even that didnt work so he was put back on daktrin. I was given cream and was cured but baby still has thrush. The worst thing that happened in all tihs was that my gp told me not to breast feed and give formula as me and my baby were reinfecting each other. Since i am first time mum so i didnt know what effect it will have on my supply so while i kept pumping, stil lmy supply went down.After 6 days, i started bf again and ignored gp.

The stuation now is that i dont have enuf milk and i have to top up and someitmes offer full formula to baby.

I have talked to HV and she says i can just give formula and not worry. She thinks since i have gone thru the stress of operation, that had effected my supply. Inspite of me asking is there anything i can do to increase my supply, i dont seem to get any answer except that "u have tried best, if its not working give formula". Even GPs are uselss as i think they are also responsible for giving me advise Not to BF in thrush!!

Can anyone help me as i want to fully bf and not give formula at all.

smerchant.

if you want to fully breastfeed, then you need to stop giving any formula top ups at all.... and put baby to the breast as much as you can and as much as she wants... it will take patience and perserverance, but it can be done

if you do a search for 'relactation' on here, you will find some good tips.

have you contacted any of the helplines, ABM, LLL, NCT ?

am so sorry you had such a bad time during delivery, i imagine the stress, the heamorrhage and blood loss had some effect on breastfeeding at the start and you did really well to start breastfeeding after a shaky start.

i hope you are able to get back to fully BF and you will get some really good advice here, Hunkermunker and Tiktok will hopefully see this and give some great help

www.kellymom.com is a good place to look for advice too

Stress can affect your supply in the very short term (for a day or two) but it does recover. The relying on expressing and topping up will have affected it far more.

You can re-establish breastfeeding and scale back the top-ups. Tiktok will be along soon with any luck, so if what she says contradicts what I'm about to suggest then please ignore me .

The best way to build up your supply is to feed lots. If you can manage to take to your bed with your DD for a couple of days of skin-to-skin time and lots of breastfeeding, with a helpful DH/DP bringing you drinks and meals, then that would be a really good start, but it's not necessary.

The best thing to build up supply is more breastfeeding. Breastfeed her as often as you can and always offer both breasts, at least while you are trying to build up your supply. In fact, once she has "finished" both sides it's worth popping her back on the first one again for some extra stimulation.

How much are you currently topping her up with? If it's a lot then you can continue topping up after some feeds but aim to reduce how much you are topping up with, and scale it down to nothing over the next week or two.

Wow, what a nightmare you've had! Well done for persevering and BRILLIANT that you want to fully BF... I'm sure lots of people will be along who know about building up BF again but general rule for building up supply is feed and feed and feed (and maybe, if you've an electric pump - you can hire them - express in between). I think you've basically got to keep stimulating your breasts to make more milk.

If fluconazole and nystatin and daktarin didn't work (wasn't clear in your post but were you given fluc or baby or both?) then you might need to try some other things - see www.drjacknewman.com for advice - he says gentian violet is effective but I've no idea what it is, where you get it or whether it works but I guess anything is worth a try if you're still troubled by thrush.

And have you been tested again for your iron levels? Presumably but if not make sure you are by GP since feeling exhausted won't help the milk supply... Liquid iron - Syntron - which you can buy over the counter is excellent and doesn't bugger up the bowels quite as much as tablets...

Good luck!

I have had 2 traumatic deliveries with lots of antibiotics afterwards. Both times ended up with thrush as a result. 1st time I just expressed and bottle fed. 2nd time managed to clear it with fluconozole.

But the important thing also is to take acidopholus. You can get infant drops to add to bottles for baby (got mine in a pharmacy, its OTC as they store it in a fridge) and I was taking acidopholus tablets and eating lots of probiotic yogs etc.

Best of luck. You have had a really bad start and I hope that you get your BF established.

For thrush I found Citricidal - Grapefruit Seed Extract worked really well ( had it with both DCs )

Hearing you loud and clear... I also had a bit of a nightmare birth and husband with broken leg stress... I have tried everything:

Take fenugreek tablets (from health food store), start by taking about 3, 3 times a day, then after a couple of days can halve it. It should have an effect after a few days.

Drink loads of ribina - berries seem to help!!!

Express milk using breast pump. Express milk before baby feeds (just about 30 ml / 1 or 2 ounces at first). Let baby feed then top up with the expressed milk. The baby sucking furiously on your breast will encourage milk production - as you get more milk, express more before baby feeds. Annoying and hard work but it does work.

BF baby when ever baby is hungry or stressed.

Get into bed and let baby feed all day!!! (you may need to enlist help from a friend to bring you ribena...)

Massage your breasts gently, little circles.

Remove all your stresses - you may have to have a mind set change and just accept taht the ironing will never get done and the house will never be clean again, but the sooner you relax, the sooner your milk will flow.

Get a support network - There were 3 of us from our antenatal group who have persevered with BF for 6 months - and we could not have done it alone!

Good luck!

Thank you all for your valuable suggestions.I will try these and hope i can see some improvement.

My baby is taking roughly 5-6 ounces per feed and he feeds every 3-4 hours. I am able to get 2-3 ounces by expressing and rest i top up. Sometimes i even get 4 ounces but then in the next session, i hardly get 2 ounces. If my baby is hungry after 2 hours after feed (bf), then he doesnt get anything more than 1 ounce so then i have to give him all formula.

Hi,

Sorry to hear about all your traumas- impressed that you want to persevere with the BF after all that. Sure you will get good advice here but found NCT helpline v good for most of my problems.

Can recommend the staying in bed/(babymoon?) feeding +++ bit- bit dubious previously but had a migraine last week and DH not home til next day. Took to bed with lots of water/ snackies and just let my lO (6 months just) feed whenever he wanted and did skin to skin. Also had a few toys for him! I express a night/ afternoon feed and have definately increased quantity since.

Best of luck.

I'm sorry you've had such a rough time. It sounds like you're doing really well managing to carry on breast feeding. Sorry if this is a bit long winded, but I thought it might be helpful.
I had a similar start to you and what I was advised to do was to feed the baby every 3 hours (day and night!) for 20 minutes on each breast, and then express alternating 5 minutes on each breast for a total of 20 minutes. I would then top-up by 70mls (my baby at this stage was just 1 week & had lost weight too). When my baby was gaining enough, I reduced the amount I was topping up by 10mls a day. Sometimes if I couldn't express after feeding, I would do it before the next feed was due, or just after a shower when it was easier. I would use formula to top-up if I didn't have enough expressed milk. It was hard work feeding and expressing during the day and night. It took me 10 days to get my milk supply up enough to stop using formula.
Perhaps you could try reducing your top-up by 10 mls a day. I think if you go 'cold turkey' and stop all at once it would be very hard as it takes a while for your supply to catch up.
I also had thrush and found using nystatin cream for me and nystatin drops for my ds at the same time worked (after trying nystatin and daktarin previously). Alternatively you can buy daktarin gel over the counter which you can give to the baby and put on your breasts, which has the advantage that the baby gets it as well, though it is a bit sticky.
Anyway it sounds like you've done really well. Expressing 2-3 oz at a time is really good. Good luck with everything.

Congrats on baby & bf! I recommend lots of rest, plenty to eat & drink & feed feed feed, it will only prob take 2-3days tops for your milk to sort itself out, stay in & feed on demand..... stay in your pajama's, if you can't sleep then rest!

It will help! Leave the dishes, put your feet up.

smerchant, I'm no expert, I'm only 10 weeks in with my first, but I from my experience I have to agree with everything that's been said on here. My supply dwindled massively at two weeks, I went to bed with my ds for two days, both of us naked (well he had a nappy on) and did nothing but feed and sleep (with a bit of reading and chatting on the phone ) I really got to know my ds, lots of cuddling, gazing in to his eyes and generally bonding. I've also taken fenugreek (1 capsule three times a day) plus I express after my first three feeds of the day for evening top ups. At first I used to get only 1oz from those three expressing sessions, but now I'm getting 5oz (on top of feeding for an hour every three hours). I've hired a medela symphony expresser, which has a double pump thingy so you can express from both sides at the same time. Apparently doing both sides at the same time can increase prolactin production (?) and that increases supply further. After very scary big weight losses in my ds when he dropped from the 50th centile to the 2nd, he's now back up to the 25th after 8 weeks of doing all this and not one formula top up. It really can be done, it's blooming hard work, but well done for trying. Good luck!

are you doing as many night feeds as pos? that would be good for boosting milk levels. otherwise, i'd phone the nct/lll/abm helplines and speak to a counsellor. my instinct is to say ditch the bottles and feed feed feed but they could tell you better than anyone if that is really the best thing to do in this situation
if your baby still has thrush, are you treating your nips after every bf so you don't get it again? sorry if that is obvious, but it would be the last thing you need! hope the thrush gets sorted out soon, is baby feeding ok with it?
huge congrats on getting so far with the bf already - it sounds like a rough time

Smerchant, so sorry you haven't had proper advice to feed the way you want to.

Loads of good advice here.Remember, the best way to make more milk is to feed more.

Assoc. of Breastfeeding Mothers have a great helpline if you want to talk it through with someone who actually knows what they are on about.

08444 122 949

Bumping for any more input from the experts...

I called LL AND BFN helpline. Talked to the counseller and they reccomended taking baby to bed with me and feed all weekend. They also recoemmended fenugreek capsules. They said i need to relactate and gave me address to Jack Newman wesbsite for breast compression. One of the counseller was very helpful and she gave me her home number if i wanted to discuss any more.

I will do as they suggested and take my baby with me to bed this weekend and will ask my husband to bring food and drinks to me. This weekend was supposed to be our rest weekend as our boiler broke down last week and there were installers in our house for last 3-4 days so we are very tired with all cleaning etc.But bf is more important and my husband also wants to establish bf so he will help as much as he can.

I am pumping using avent Isis hand pump. Is this good pump or should i look for something better?

I like the hand pump because you can easily reposition it. I find I move it around quite a lot and get lots more out.

As well as Fenugreek, I'm taking More Milk Plus (be warned, its rank!) and co-sleeping. I'm also expressing after every feed to encourage my supply and give a top-up bottle for later in the day.

breastfeedingheaven

In regards to thrush, I dont have it any more. I was given a cream called clotrimazole and that seems to have worked.
But my baby still has it. He doesnt have problem in feeding or anything but his tongue is permanently coated white.

First when he was diagnosed with thrush he was given nystatin for one week. It didnt work then he was given daktrin for 5 days. That didnt work then GP went for very strong medicine called fluconazole. It was 7 days course by on 6th day another gp stopped it (as fluconazole also didnt work) and put him back on daktrin (after talking with registrar peadratician in hospital).
I have been applying daktrin to his tongue for 5 weeks now and took him to gp yesterday. GP has now given nystatin for him and nothing for me. He thinks nystatin will work now as thrush has reduced a bit. I am not sure. Will give it a go and see if nystatin works.

Glad to hear the thrush seems to be clearing up.. I hope it continues.

With regards expressers... I have hired a medela symphony double pump, which I think I've said further down, helps increase supply as it does both boobs at the same time. The number for Medela is 0870 950 5994. It's about £40 a month. My supply has gone up so much it used to take me about an hour to get one ounce out, now I can get nearly 5oz in about 20 mins in the morning, and that's only taken me about four weeks to get to that level.

Smerchant, glad you are getting some useful advice.

smerchant...just on the issue of thrush, as far as I'm aware you both need to be treated simultaneously for it to be fully effective or it will keep coming back. Ideally you should have a loading dose of fluconazle tablets, then two a day of a much smaller dose for 10 days whilst treating your breasts with daktarin gel and baby with nystin or daktarin. It's possible that it is still present in your breasts if your baby still has it. I've found the Breastfeeding Networks thrush leaflet in pdf format whch is a bit of a jigsaw puzzle, but this was the only format on their website

I've had it a couple of times now and it was a nightmare to clear up. I did the above, and also took Australian bush flower green essence which was recommended by a friend.

I don't have anything constructive on the supply issues other than what has been said already, and highly recommend the babymoon option. I've done this a few times now and it has always helped, even if by only forcing me to slow down and relax some.

you sound like you've had a really tough time of it; Well Done for your continued efforts

Good Luck xx