Considering formula in the evening - any implications?

[Moorhen]

DS is 14 weeks and used to sleep from 8-10, have feed, sleep 11-4/5, feed, fall asleep till 8.

Now, since his first cold and clocks going back, he's waking up for the 4/5am feed and refusing to go back to sleep. He's not a good sleeper during the day (catnaps mainly, 45 mins tops) and wants to sleep from 7pm, although I do try to keep him awake a bit longer.

I am desperate. DH spent an hour shush-patting this morning from 5.30am and the little blighter only slept another 45 mins. Am permanently tearful because I now can't get back to sleep if he does go.

Am considering giving a formula bottle in the evening (he already has a big bf and a bottle of ebm) just to see if it tides him over that one extra hour. I don't LIKE the idea, but as I say I'm desperate.

I would continue expressing, so it wouldn't affect supply hopefully, but is there anything else I should consider before I take this step?

why do you think that formula would help him sleep longer?

Well, I know it's not a certainty, but AFAIK it takes longer to digest, so if it's a feed he's waking up for he might last that bit longer.

If I'm wrong then fair enough, just thought it might be worth a try because 5 hrs a night and no sleep during the day is killing me. Three months ago I'd have thought it sounded great, but am now used to a different and nicer pattern...

Don't think that formula is necessarily the answer if he was sleeping fine beforehand, and changed only since a cold and the time change. Perhaps he is disturbed by light? Maybe try blackout curtains, and taking naps in the dark?

Well, I did wonder about light, but then he was born in July, has been fine in the mornings up to now, and happily naps during the day in broad daylight. I did try just turning out the lights and leave him to it, and his eyes practically jump out of his head trying to see! And he howls in the car when it's dark, I think he's scared.

tbh it prob won't make him sleep any longer, he is still so tiny, night wakings are perfectly normal. by giving formula in the evening you supply will be affected as the most important time to feed for milk production is evening/night time as this is when your milk producing hormones are at their highest level.
have you thought about sharing a bed with baby so you don't have to get up so much? and try to cat-nap during the day when your ds sleeps?
i know it's horrid but just remember 'it's only a phase, it's only a phase.......

beautifuldays, I would only give formula after the big bf he already has, would that still affect supply? I don't want to do that, bf is really important to me.

But as for cat-napping - the problem is I am a lousy sleeper myself, always have been. Need AT LEAST an uninterrupted hour to get to sleep during day, so that's a non-starter. And have tried co-sleeping but actually just don't sleep well, every time he moves I'm awake and also uncomfortable. Not trying to be obstructive, btw, I do appreciate the input.

The 'only a phase' mantra is something I am trying, but TBH I sometimes don't like DS much in the mornings at the moment and it's really upsetting me. I know that sounds completely awful.

Can your DH take him downstairs for the night, sleep on the sofa, feed him ebm when he wakes up and leave you to have a night's uninterrupted sleep? DH did that for me when DS2 was 6wo or so and it really, really helped. Because if you give him formula and he still keeps waking up (and he may well - I don't think the link between "hunger" and "sleep" is always that simple), I don't think you'll be happy, given your posts.

DH announced this morning that the non-sleep problem is now his to solve. Which means he'll be getting DS back to sleep (or not) and will if poss do a night feed.

He is a wonderful man.

But he's a wonderful man with a demanding job who has to get up at 5.45 am and spend the day in London, so is just as tired as me. The guilt of leaving him to do what I'm on maternity leave to do is making me want to weep anyway.

And I also need to learn to go back to sleep even if DS won't, as at the moment if I can hear him (we're in a flat, so I always can), I'm too tense to sleep.

Sigh.

You're on maternity leave to do the demanding job of looking after your DS during the day (while your DH does his demanding job in London). The night-time stuff is extra and should be shared between the two of you -- and it is often easier for DHs to settle babies as they don't smell of milk.

Also, try earplugs if your DH is dealing with the night wakings.

Earplugs - now there's a thought. Will buy some soon as.

I do SWYM about night stuff being extra - DH says same - but it doesn't feel like that's right. Not least because days with DS are generally lovely. Maybe I have a touch of the mummy-martyrs or something

Try splitting the late feed - i.e. half/two-thirds-feed at 10:30pm and then the rest at at 11:15pm - it worked for dd to help her sleep through til 6pm - she is also 14 weeks. If ebm at the late feed, increase the total feed by 1oz as well, if he'll take it. At least that way you know it is probably not hunger that is waking him up.

I write as someone who exclusively ff'ed her baby from 4 weeks. She was one of the worst sleepers I have ever encounter. She would quite easily wake a couple of hours after devouring a huge bottle of formula. I agree with hunker that the link between hunger and sleep is a bit overplayed. It would be a shame to run the risk of affecting your capacity to breast feed.

You poor thing Moorhen, you have my sympathy.

Don't really have any advice, im very lucky to have a 7 week old baby that sleeps through night and has done for a while. But I don't take it for granted as I know people with problems like yours and just wanted to say it sounds like you are doing a great job and obviously care for your family so much which is lovely.

IT WILL GET BETTER XX

hi moorhen my dd id now 4 and a half months and i have actually done this. for about two weeks now

i must say it has worked for me and ive been doing the same expressing when dd goes to bed so i now also have a nice stash in the freezer

th only bad side ive found is that dd can get a bit stressy on the breast now in th day [pissed off i guess that its not as easy to get the milk]
i do use the tt closr to nature

before i gave hr a bottle she would sleep from 11 till 7/8 and with one bottle a night can now sleep from about 830 till 7/8am
but i guess sh was a "better" slepper in the first place iyswim?

why not try it for one night thats the only to tell really isnt it
just make sure you express then you can always change your mind

how long did you intened on ex bf for ?

IME it can be very difficult to get babies back to sleep if they wake at 5am as they're just not tired enough to get into a deep sleep. Believe it or not Gina Ford actually recommends bringing them in bed with you at this time and I think this is the first sensible thing I've heard her say! Do you think you could sleep or at least nap while he feeds?

hi moorhen,

my DD (15 weeks old) is breastfed too but once in a while i cant express enough and we complete the bottle with formula (we use the bottle before bed time). sometimes she sleeps longer than her usual, sometimes not. my view is that... who knows what really works with babies! it could be a combination of things that made her sleep longer that particular night or not...

but in case you want to give your baby formula, i dont think it will harm your supply because you are not skipping a feed.

Thanks everyone, really do appreciate the support.

Esp today - have been awake since 4am. DS (actually he is not very D at all at the moment) fed lying next to me, fell asleep, was put into his cot, woke up instantly. Fed him other side.

DH and I then took turns to shush-pat for an hour. He slept for 25 minutes.

For the third day running, I have started the morning by bursting into tears of exhaustion and frustration and announcing that I don't want a baby any more. I feel like sh*te, esp as it's DH's birthday

Daisy, you are right - he is just not tired at five. This is why I am so desperate to get him to sleep an extra hour or so.

DH now v keen to try all-bottle so he can take pressure off me, but I reckon the guilt would make me more unhappy.

So assuming I do keep pumping and give formula AFTER the last b-feed, as jabuti says, will my supply definitely be OK? Feel should at least try this if only to show DH I am listening to him.

Moorhen,the baby is small and needs to be fed small regular meals.

If you want to breastfeed why fill him with a substitute which will irrevocably affect his gut flora.
Do you have other children?

If not,then just go back to bed in the day.

This is what babies do.They are not made to sleep for hours and hours.

I would have felt that 5 hours unbroken sleep at this stage was pretty good going myself.

Hi Moorhen,
Poor you, you sound like you're struggling at the moment.
I have a few thoughts - ds was fed a mixture of ebm and formula and what he had made absolutely no difference to how much he slept. He has always been a bad sleeper. But it does make a difference for some babies. Maybe you could try the formula a few times and see what happens - it's not all or nothing, you can do it and then stop doing it if it doesn't work.

Second thought - every time I get really upset worrying that ds has changed his sleep habits and is going to be waking up early every day, he changes it again within a short time and all is right with the world. It IS just a phase and it won't stay like this forever.

Hope things improve for you soon.

xx

How do you feel about co-sleeping? We never intended to but did it as a last resort at this age and within a few days it made a huge difference to my sanity (increased) and exhaustion (decreased) levels.

early days with newborns can be crappy. good news is you prob won't reember this in a few months time!

i know you've already said you can't sleep if he's with you, but looking at your posts it doesn't seemm like you get to sleep anyway. so if he went back to sleep in your bed at 4 and only woke when you put him back in his cot, why not just leave him in your bed this time round? worst case scenario, he will sleep but you won't but at least you won't have to lie there listening to screaming

do you bf lying down at night? bf makes you sleepy anyway, another adv over formula, so if you bf lying down you can doze at the very least even if not get back to sleep completely.

ime many many parents even if not generally co sleeping, do stick their babies in bed for that last hour or so.

otherwise, I notice your dh gets up at 5.45 to go to work so perhaps it is the noise that wakes your ds up? an ideal opportunity for your dh to bond over an early brekkie. you bf, he takes baby off you and downstairs for a chat and nappy change, brings him back when he goes to work, baby is prob hungry and tired again so you bf lying down again, baby and you go back to sleep for an hour or so.

it seems a long long time ago now, i'm guessing this is your first?? i agree with moondog, 5 hours sounds pretty good going, it's just getting used to crap sleep that's the prob

it seems to me your sleep is more important at the moment moorhen. i would love to only give breast milk to my DD, but i dont see the point of making myself miserable to the point that im unhappy about her. and there has been days like that for me too, you are not alone. im also very worried about my milk supply, i wouldnt do anything to jeopardize it. if you dont skip a feed, if you get all the stimulation from your baby that you can, you will be fine.

so far my DD has not shown any health problem whatsoever with a bit of formula here and there. she is a bright and happy 15 weeks old baby.

just remembered another early days trick, you go to bed at same time as he does (dont worry, this is only for a few weeks, not the rest of your life ), then when he wakes up, dh brings him through to you for a feed, you feed lying down and go back to sleep afterwards, dh takes him back to cot if that's how you're doing things, you then get more overall sleep and so 5.45 isn't so awful as it could be
will he feed any more at 5.45, do you try him again after you've been doing the shushing thing for a few minutes? or is he awake and happy? or awake and grumpy (ie still sleepy).
with any luck he'll settle back down in a few days anyway. there's also teething to think about, that causes them to be unsettled, tho tbh mine were more unsettled last thing at night than in the morning

Morocco, he's waking up at 4-4.30, feeding and then wanting to start the day. Happy, smiley and very much awake!

Could try feeding more, may do so tonight.

Problem is, two weeks ago he was waking, feeding and sleeping again. So in a way it is worse than the awful first days because it feels like a massive step back.

I find that my ds always sleeps better at night when he has slept well during the day. So during bad patches (and there have been many) I do whatever it takes to get him to nap during the day - be that letting him sleep in the pram while I go for a walk, letting him sleep on me while I sit in the dark in the rocking chair, etc.

Also, you said that he wants to fall asleep at 7pm but you try to keep him awake longer. Maybe you should try putting him to bed at 7 if he's tired then. I don't think that doing so would make him wake up an hour earlier, and in fact he might sleep better if he's not overtired when he goes to sleep.

Finally, can you get some help for a few hours during a few days a weeks? This is what saved my sanity - I think I would have cracked by now if I hadn't done it.