HUNGRY 4 month old :( please help us make it to 6 months

[puppydavies]

before we start can someone remind me of all the other reasons 4 month olds start to wake more in the nights? in case there's something i'm missing.

have exc bf dd2 (18 weeks) pretty successfully up till now, but she's been doing the 4 month growth spurt thing for over a week now, has gone from sleeping 7hrs+3hrs to sleeping 4 max then waking every hour after that to feed (co-sleeping for the second part of the night). is also fussing before/between letdowns most feeds. feeding roughly every 1.5-2 hrs in day. rarely seems full after a feed but is distractable for a while.

bf has gone more smoothly this time than last time (story here) when we started on solids at 20wks (or 5mo, can't remember), this isn't just down to not getting dd2 weighed - she's been happy, contentented and obviously well-fed up till now (with the expected growth spurts, but none lasting this long).

will start back on fenugreek today, and stick her in grobag in case too cold. am prepared to give it another week to settle down in case is indeed just growth spurt but am not prepared for this just to be the way things are for the next 2 months.

out of interest, would solid food be the preferred supplement over formula at this age? i was reluctant to introduce dd1 to solids so early but she absolutely thrived on them.

ANY help, advice or moral support greatly appreciated as i'm feeling a bit bogged down thanks to lack of sleep

you're getting cross about the wrong thing, geordie... do what you want with your child, there aren't any clubs, fgs.

but as norah says, The Whole Point of BLW is that you're waiting until such times as the child self-feeds. that's all. if you're intervening to give baby rice etc, you're not doing that. not to say your child isn't delighted by your intervention, but it isn't BLW.

as you can see, the NHS is saying you can give finger foods from 6 months, so it's not world-shattering stuff.

the only concern i have about the mistaken conflation of BLW and finger food is that if people have built up their babies' appetites by spoonfeeding rice and purees etc until 6 months and then stop doing that in a mistaken belief that they are 'doing BLW', they might find that their babies' appetite has outstripped their dexterity and ability to self-feed and just feel a bit rotten and hungry. that's why i'd tend to mention it, to avoid that confusion.

if you'd say 'oh i wouldn't do that, i'd do a mix', then that's just normal weaning at 6 months. do you see? nothing to get pissed off about At All and talking about 'surrendering', 'buses', 'clubs' and 'evils' is frankly a bit silly.

oh righto, x-posted.

no time - should be sleeping while she does.

after a rubbish day and a really bad evening where she was finishing a feed and still screaming i gave her 4 1/2 oz of ebm (of teh grand total of 6 1/2 oz i've managed to express and freeze). it didn't touch the sides and she was much happier for an hour or so afterwards.

unfortunately supplementing w/ebm isn't an option in the longer term as you can see. so am now really torn about giving her a small formula feed when she's inconsolable. is it really likely to impact that much on bf at this stage?

how do i hold on for the longer term when i know how easy it would be to make her happier in the short term?

how do you know she finished the feed? did you offer the other side?

Personally...as mentioned earlier, I give ds a ff every night before bed. It fills him up, obviously my supply has adjusted accordingly, but when I gave him the formula I made a decisison that I was happy for him to have this, and it would be a long term thing, not a short term. I personally dont think there is anything wrong with ff, but its up to you, only you can decide what you feel is best.

It will get better though, your supply will increase if you choose to continue ex bf. You are doing really well, your baby has had nearly 5 months of bf. You have given her the best possible start.

Couldn't agree with you more Norah - my last 2 didn't start eating -by which i mean picking up food, chewing and swallowing it until 8-9 months -shock horror!. The whole point of BLW is that it takes account of the age at which babies have the physical skills and reflexes that mean food will go down with little incident . I find it really odd, looking back through my collection of old baby books that there's little mention of 'weaning' until around the 1950's which coincided with the publication of weight and developmental charts -which still cast their shadow over everything today.
the whole idea of purees is to get past the tongue thrust reflex that is still present in most 4 month olds - BLW is about taking advantage of the baby's development in that a 6 month old should have got rid of tongue thrust, has a well developed gag reflex and the muscular control required to get food into the mouth, chew it up and move it to the back of the mouth to be swallowed - by all means geordie let your baby experience foods by mouthing them and playing with them, but don't mistake it for readiness or capability.
That's speaking with my professional hat on btw.
as a BLW mum, it is a black and white thing - you're either traditional or blw - a mixture is just that, a mixture.
Lisa X

"how do you know she finished the feed? did you offer the other side?"

yes. several times. but sorry to interrupt your discussion

this isn't about me trying to justify some pent up desire to spoonfeed my baby it's about a baby who is getting increasingly distressed because the milk isn't there when she's hungry.

You have my sympathy, puppy. I'm not any kind of expert, but I exclusively bf ds for 6 mths & am still bf at 15 mths.

I struggled on a few occasions when ds had a growth spurt. Had an awful time around 4mths then realised he was teething! Cut 2 teeth at 4mth then 2 more a couple of weeks later. Wanted to feed around the clock every couple of hours but then let off before he was full.

Once I realised he was teething I was able to adress that & it helped.

Co-sleeping helped with us. I'd put him down in his cot at night & then when he woke up I'd take him into bed with me - helped with my exhaustion anyway!

Maybe a silly queston, but do you express AFTER each feed? I was doing that, even if it was only 1/2-1 ounce at times. Helps keep the supply up & that way I didn't feel as though I was depriving ds of anything by pumping at anther time.

what a total non-surprise to find there's as much sanctimonious smuggery about weaning as there is about every single other aspect of parenthood.

(sorry puppydavies, but I couldn't help it. some things just give me the rage)

Puppy,

I feel for you, I really do. I am in a similar place with my 5.5 month old, except his feeding issues have been aggravated by severe silent reflux leading to shorter more frequent feeds and a subsequent supply issue for me. I have reluctantly introduced solids at 23 weeks, and gave him ebm top ups once a day for 10 days until my frozen supply ran out. He has thrived n ths and gained a pound in 7 days. Other feeds have settled down as a result, which was a huge relief.

Last week i 'gave in' (that's what it felt like to me) and gave formula as a top up once or twice a day, and mixed in his food as I couldn't express enough either.

I felt a bit sad, but did have serious and valid concerns about my supply.

I am fairly convinced you don't have a supply issue,but am no expert. I found fenugreek worked for me, and on the advice of the LLL, if you can express for 20 mins after every feed, your supply will improve. I was told if i could manage 10 times every 24 hours i should see results in a week.

Obviously this is very challenging, esp with older kids around too, but I have stuck to expressing about 2/3 times a day at roughly the same time, and it has boosted supply a bit in a week.

If you feel you can hang in there, do, but if not, I felt loads better about introducing solids than formula, although I do know FF is more calorific and therefore prob better at filling up a baby than solids.

good luck with whateveryou decide.

Sorry for essay!

can people who want to discuss weaning etc in the abstract please take it somewhere else?

i do really appreciate the supportive posts though (whether they advocate supplementing or not).

the issue during the day is hunger-related i'm sure as she's crying while she's feeding during the pause between letdowns and stops when the milk comes. but in the night it's been a bit more snacky/comforty, so something underlying like teeth wouldn't surprise me.

as for expressing i've never had the most abundant supply (as per other thread) and i can't get a letdown to express at all unless i leave it an hour after the last feed and she hasn't really been going long enough between feeds the last few days. if i can get her to sleep at all today i'll try then (1oz is the most i get anyway, hence pitiful freezer stock).

was a better night last night, she fed for an hour and a half at 2 o'clock (dozing but sucking when she got a letdown) and slept slightly longer chunks after that. maybe this we're turning the corner?

on the upside she laughed for tthe first time yesterday

okay i have a plan. fenugreek + expressing today. dp has time in lieu to take so will be here for the afternoon. so he can take her out for a walk in the sling to get her to sleep and i'll do my best to get another oz or 2 to give her tonight if she gets into a state again.

will take it one day at atime.

and thanks again to everyone who's shared their experiences, it really has helped.

i would try offereing a feed every hour to try and build up your supply.

on the expressing, express straight after the feed, don't worry about the let down/getting any milk at first, it is just 'extending the feed' IYSWIM, so that eventually the extra milk will be there. I was told that my body would 'catch up' eventually

good luck.

true story, wombling, that's what i did too. the sucking's the thing, not the milk, iykwim? mind you, i really was fighting to preserve and ever-dwindling supply so my situation was different.
thing is, puppy, i gave formula and really regretted it as it knackered my knife-edge supply, so i couldn't possibly advise that for anyone else. but only you knows how much you've got and whether you think there's any wriggle room.
have you not been taking fenugreek up til now? oh the stink... you'll smell of curry... but it did help a bit. there's also domperidone, have you asked for that? and i was told by the bfcs to eat lots of oats and drink guinness. i did 'em all. tell you what, that guinness is nice.

Nothing magical happens at 26 weeks. Babies are not "suddenly" ready for solids, just because it's 26 weeks since they were born. They're all ready at different times.

I don't know enough about BLW to be able to comment. I'd never even heard of it until I started using MN.

I'm not the sort of mother who can devote days and days of feeding every hour to build up supply/ get over a growth spurt/ whatever. It's just not me. I admire those who can do it, but I am far too selfish, frankly. I would go out of my mind.

My DD is four months and whilst I know the current "guidelines" are 6 months for introducing solids. They also say "absolutely not" before 4 months, which I have respected. When I had my first daughter, the guidelines were 3 months. I don't feel like a bad parent for giving DD1 baby rice at 12 weeks. It certainly didn't do her any harm. My mother was told to put rice in my bottle when I was 3 months. A big now...

DD2 has been fascinated by us all eating for weeks and weeks and has been grabbing at food. I tried her with a bit of puree and she loves it. She squeaks with excitement when she sees the little purple food pots coming out of the fridge. I went with what seems right for us. Had she spat out the food and gagged, I would have left her be for another while.

The bottom line is that you need to do what feels right for both you and your baby. Look at the guidelines, apply them to your baby, but remember that the chances are, that when your baby has his or her own baby, the way you do things now, will probably be "wrong" anyway.

I know I will be flammed for saying this but here goes

My son was 9lb 1oz when he was born and was a regular 9oz bottle drainner.
(I bf for 6 weeks but felt I couldn't cope with the feeding every 1-1/2 hrs.)

He was on my lap at 15 weeks whilst I was eating and he grabeed part of my chicken sandwhich and stuffed it into his mouth so we (dh and I agreed) that we would introduce solids. The guidlines then were 4 months (this was only 3 years ago!!!) and we felt this would be okay. He also displayed other indications of being hungry as he woke up earlier and earlier and was increadibly 'angry' at his milk bottle, often pushing it away. He settled soon after introducing solids and began sleeping again and feeding from his bottle more contentedly.

I am now prgt with ds2 (35 weeeks!!) and although the guidlines have changed I will still follow my baby. If I can b/f for the first 6 months then that's great, but if he shows me he is wanting more then I will respond to his needs. I am confident in following my own insticts whilst taking into consideration the altered guidlines.
I have already been told my lo is measuring big (I have had 3 growth scans already so we are talking 'size' not 'weight') so I will just have to wait and see...

Couldn't agree more muppetgirl.

And puppy, fwiw, I'm not saying this as part of an "abstract discussion" about weaning. I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I'm just sharing my experience in the hope that you don't feel obliged to do things a certain way, even if it feels wrong for you.

puppy- i was trying to help funnily enough. lots of mums don't realise they can switch sides as many times as they like. i made some other suggestions also further down the thread which i'm not sure you responded to. weaning was discussed because you brought it up as an option. threads don't always go the way the OP wants.

twelveyeargap, you say you don't know enough about BLW to comment but reading throught the lines you seem to be commenting nevertheless...

as a matter of interest the small piece of research into BLW was done when the guideline was 4 months and the babies nevertheless picked up foods at 6 months, more or less.

the more or less is important because, as you so rightly pointed out, not all babies are the same. by leaving it up to them to decide when to eat, you simply take yourself out of the equation. if their external development is such that they can pick food up and eat it, then it seems reasonable to assume that they are also ready internally.

i know of a couple of babies on here who swiped food and started BLW at just over 4 months so i don't have any doubt that some are capable of self-feeding before the 26 week mark. that's not actually what was being discussed here, though.

okay i asked nicely to keep the thread o/t. i'm shattered and upset and i'm leaving the thread now.

puppy, c'mon, you know it doesn't work like that... you can't tell people, nicely or otherwise, where and what to post.

you've had lots of advice on here, you just have to make a decision about what you're going to do, that's all. what is it that you feel you're missing?

have you asked for domperidone from your doctor?
have your armpits started to stink yet from the fenugreek?
are you able to do a 'babymoon'?
have you seen the finest BFCs in the land?
are you switch feeding?

some people (myself included) just don't know that much about bfing, but you did bring up weaning yourself so that opened up the discussion imo. that people are misinterpreting BLW as something that is unpleasantly cut and dried, well, i'm allowed to address that i think.

i didn't make it without mix-feeding, i was told i'd harm my daughter's kidneys if i didn't give her formula and i caved and it's something i regret. i've given you the best advice i've got, so has ruddynorah and all the others. if you are actually looking for Tiktok or Mears or Hunker or Moony then i suggest you post with their names in the thread.

Aitch, I was just commenting on giving solids before 6 months - which is more what the op was about. I haven't read the piece of research on BLW, so I was giving my opinion completely without reference to it at all.

There wasn't anything between the lines. I was just trying to say that there is no one "right way", so nobody should feel bad about waiting/ not waiting, puree/ blw.

I wrote my experience down, because hearing from lots of people with different experiences gives a more balanced view of what "people do". That's all.

well again, the Whole Point of BLW is that it leaves it up to the baby rather than the parent when the child eats, which has much in common with what you are saying...
as for there not being a right way, the WHO says that you should introduce solids as purees or mashed foods at 6 months. that's the right way. any accommodation made around that is at your own (or your baby's) risk. it's one i took, obviously.