on demand vs gina ford

[munchkinsusie]

ok, i realise this is probably going to be a hot topic but it's something i really need to know more about. i've known people who've done it the gina ford way and swear by it but i went to a thing at the weekend where a breastfeeding counsellor said that the best thing to do is on-demand feeding. can someone give me their experiences of how they did it and what the adv. and disadv. were for them. (as a quick aside, i do intend to breastfeed but i quite liked the gina ford way of having some bottle feeds so taht my dh can feed baby as well).

munchkinsusie, if you intend to breastfeed, the best way to stimulate your milk supply is to demand feed. You and your baby work as a unit to feed him or her- your baby's suck will stimulate your body to produce enough milk for his or her needs. Expressing doesn't stimulate milk production enough, so the more you express, the less milk there will be eventually.

I didn't do GF, but demand fed for 4 months till I went back to work, then expressed for another 8 months or so. After that dd had breastfeeds morning and evening and cow's milk during the day.
I know that a lot of dads want to be involved, and sometimes it helps Mum to have some baby-free time, but I would advise against bottle feeding either EBM or formula until your breastfeeding is well established.

You're right that any thread with GF is gets heated, so I'll duck out here!

On demand feeding worked for me but be prepared for it to be hard work - at the beginning it can feel as if you spend your whole life feeding. Eventually babies find their own routines and life becomes easier. Bottle feeds can make breast feeding more difficult, as breast milk is only produced as a response to feeding.

With regard to Tissy's comment about expressing, I personally did express, and certainly didn't experience any loss of milk production, but I did produce a lot of milk anyway.

I am not going to comment on the Gina Ford method, except to say that babies do find their own routines and can't always be made to fit anyone else's. You are quite right that this is going to get very, very heated, so having said my piece in favour of demand feeding I'm going to shuffle off and not get involved in the fisticuffs to come.

I'm not sure whether you're asking about whether or not to bottle feed or only about the timings of feeds (whether breast or bottle).

DD had a few expressed bottle feeds in the very first few weeks with no problem, and then was exclusively breastfed - I had thought that there would be no problem when she started nursery at 4.5 months - but it took a couple of weeks at least to get her used to the bottle as she had no idea how to go about it. Fortunately this was towards the end of my maternity leave and she was just having very short days there to get into the swing of things, but I well remember driving up to the nursery to breastfeed her until we got it sorted. So it may be worth giving the odd bottle to keep your baby used to it.

On timings, you should really go with whatever works best for you. I did find Gina useful, but only as a guide, and adapted it as necessary to suit us - for example rather than a rigid every 3 hours feed (or whatever it was - can't remember now!), if dd had fed well, then I would try and not feed her before 1.5 hours after the last feed, but not leave it longer than 3 hours (again, these are rough timings as I can't remember exactly). Of course if she had a meltdown and needed a feed, then I wasn't going to leave her in distress, but would first of all see if she could be distracted (to check whether she was hungry rather than bored) and then give her a feed.

Very waffly but HTH.

Well I am a BF counsellor and I did Gina Ford (before I was a BFC!).... First of all it is absolutely true that it is a supply and demand issue..... the more you feed, the more you produce and if you let a gap be too long you will diminish your milk production. Also I disagree with GF "trick" for the growth spurt time.... it's a lot of faff and it doesn't allow you to let your body understand what is needed !

I found for me and for quite a few others that the GF routine actually made me feed my baby before he showed any sign of being hungry so he hardly ever cried at all and gained 10 oz week! (So he was feeding before demanding ). Having said that some babies do need many feeds.
I did express in the evening for one reason - I found BF very painful for a long time (OK my latch must have been crap but no one really said so) so I was delighted to express at 10PM, DH gave bottle of that fresh milk and settled baby whilst I went to bed and had a 5 hour sleep (until 2h30 or 3h)... which I loved !

As a postnatal doula can I rectify one myth.... if your baby takes a bottle easily as a baby he may still refuse one at 5 months ! People assume that it's a done deal... well some babies much prefer the breast and won't take a bottle at 5 months whilst they took one for many months before that.... it can be resolved of course but don't be lulled in a false sense of security!

You will see if GF works for you - it may well do or not.... I was very pleased with the routine myself but it doesn't suit everybody's lifestyle and some babies are quite challenging so you may find it is tioo difficult. In that case you can try again 2 or 3 weeks later.

Best of luck !

I breastfed my 2nd dd on demand, however I kind of made that 'on demand' fit into my life. ie If I could I wouldn't feed more than once every 3 hrs (that is 3 hrs after start of previous feed). So if dd bacame a bit grouchy or whatever, we'd play/cuddle/change nappy v slowly etc and try to extend the time. This way very quickly ( by 3 or 4 weeks) she was in a regular(ish) routine. In the meantime I did express once or twice as I had problems with engourged boobs which was very painful, and cracked nipples which was horrid too. I think dh fed a couple of bottles of ebm in this time to give my poor nipples a break!

By week 5 I started to introduce one bottle a day, this worked really well for me (OK I used formula because the whole point was a bit of freedom for my boobs). We mixed fed in this way realy sucessfully until about 6 - 8 months (adding in more bottles when I went back to work) I gave up bf at around 10 months when dd lost interest.

Perosnally this worked for me, at the beginning it hurt so much that the bottles were a necessity to save my sanity and help me through. You can get a baby into a routine without using GF, ask your mum! All my advice came from mine, and she suggested not feeding (unless nothing else worked!) for about 2.5 - 3 hrs. However I have to say this suited DD too and it was never forced. I know bf on demand is more the 'right' thing to do, but sometimes (IMHO) people shove a boob in the mouth at the first squeak, it maynot be a 'hunger' cry. Then a viscios cycle of non-stop bf happens as the baby snacks all day long.

Bear n mind every baby is different, this worked for me, but maynot work for you.

I think you have to demand feed for the first few weeks to get your milk supply going well. Then you can start to try and get some kind of routine in as it does help you. I wouldn't recommend being as rigidly by the clock as GF but if you can try to get your baby to go about 3 hours between feeds then he/she will be hungrier, will feed better and will last longer till the next one. If you feed too often the danger is that they aren't so hungry so don't feed for long enough to get much hindmilk, so get hungry again quickly which is a vicious cycle.
Personally I disagree that expressing and introducing bottles causes problems. I expressed in the morning for a few weeks so that dh could feed ds one of the night feeds by bottle. However I hate expressing and it takes so long so we now do that feed as formula. I also tend to give him a bottle of formula in the evening as your milk is less rich then and certainly in my case the evening bf was leaving him grouchy and dissatisfied. He will drink happily from a bottle but it hasn't lessened his enthusiasm for the breast.

I'll get my piece in too, before the rush!

Demand feeding is great, it worked for me with all three, but it is worth remembering that babies do cry for reasons other than hunger, particularly once they get to the 4 weeks+ stage. With my oldest one I thought demand feeding meant plugging her on every time she squeaked, with the result that she'd be writhing around with indigestion, then sick up huge quantities of milk, before finally falling asleep which is what she'd been trying to do all along.

At that stage it is worth trying to space the feeds out a bit -- but if you follow your instinct, and remember that babies do sometimes get bored/tired as well as hungry, you should find it settles down into a sensible routine without the need for military precision. You can then introduce EBM bottles too with having the draconian expressing routine suggested by GF.

My experience exactly Pupuce! I had confidently assumed that if at the age of 1 week dd knew what to do with a bottle, this would be the case at 4.5 months and therefore I wouldn't have to bother with the faff of bottles until I had to. But no!

I've only had one baby so far, but here's my experience on how we fed.

Ds was b/f following the GF routine. Like Pupuce was saying having the routine meant that I anticipated his hunger, before he got really distraught. He put on a pound a week and was 98th centile in height and weight until he turned 2. I b/f until he self-weaned at just over 17 mths.

GF made sense to me, but in the early days I found her writing style difficult BUT that's a different thing to her advice.

We did introduce one bottle of formula a night for 4/5 weeks, which is something I wish I hadn't done now - it wasn't at all necessary and I would certainly avoid that next time. I expressed before dh gave the bottle and I kept the EBM in the fridge for emergencies the following day (never quite worked out what emergency but - hey!) Last feed quickly became EBM once I was expressing 8oz or more and the formula was banned!

Worked for me and ds and will do it again when the next one comes. Ds' weight gain was fab, he was happy, I was happy and we had a bit of freedom together rather than being plugged in every hour - it meant I really enjoyed breastfeeding and was disappointed when ds gave up.

Sponge - can you clarify something for me ?
You say : Personally I disagree that expressing and introducing bottles causes problems.

and then : He will drink happily from a bottle but it hasn't lessened his enthusiasm for the breast.

.... so that isn't a "problem"?

I think this is an issue with quite a few babies who do end up prefering a bottle as it is easier for them... so if you want to BF long term you do need to be cautious how often you indeed offer a bottle !

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In the first 3 weeks at least baby should be fed on demand because it is the best way of getting milk supply established. However,what Frogs said is exactly right - feeding on demand is not every time the baby squeaks and that is where the problem lies I think. This is where DH can be really helpful by taking the baby out in the pram or cuddle it while you have a sleep. To me that is the far more helpful thing to do than give baby a bottle. Once feeding is established i.e. baby knows hot to breastfeed well, then you can express and DH can give a feed.
It is a myth that DH's feel left out if they cannot do a feed. If you include them in all other aspects of care then they will be happy. My DH used to settle our babes after a feed by cuddling them on his chest tucked under his chin. He changed them, bathed them and cuddles them. He also used to sit beside me watching and admiring me breastfeeding. The only time he did feeds was when I went back to work.

Mixed feeding seems far too much faff. I found bf rather difficult for the first few weeks and really needed that incentive of not having to faff about with bottles and sterilising. When we got the hang of it and it became easy, it was even more convenient. I also found that other mums in my postnatal group who introduced bottles early on didn't keep up breastfeeding beyond 3-4 months. I settled into a routine that helped me predict the best times in the day to go out and/or bedtimes, but they were still flexible and it took about a month of demand feeding (though I did anticipate feeds before she got to the crying stage).

dd is 17 weeks and still fed on demand. I tried to do GF as I like routine but it didnt work for us. All I can offer is to feed on demand the first few weeks. I was lucky as DD didnt want feeding constantly and then go about having a routine that you think your d can stick to ie we tried to feed every 3 hrs or so. Somedays she wanted feeding before 3 hrs others after. If the feed was before 3 hrs I would do what was mentioned below and try to see if there was anything else that the baby wanted ie cuddling/sleep. My friend is feeding on demand and so feeds the baby every time it cries which is every hour. The baby is gaining 10lbs every week. I dont know if this is because the baby is genuinely hungry or just cries for other reasons but gets fed instead.