Debate opener.... (please avoid if you don't want a debate/argument!)

[Scoobyc]

[this is based on some musings I have had and I'm interested in what different people think]

If you are committed to the idea that breast is best but a mother is finding bfeeding so difficult they are very depressed about it, not bonding with their child etc etc

is it better for the child to be ff with a non-depressed mother who bonds with them, or bf with a depressed mother who doesn't?

(Assuming for the sake of argument that there is no way to change the mental state of bfeeding mother.)

(I'm musing on this one because quite a few people have said they stopped bfeeding for reasons like this and then found they were able to bond with their baby (and in fact it applies to me) so I am wondering if the "breastfeeding nazis" (tongue in cheek) out there rate breastfeeding higher than maternal bonding for baby welfare)

I know breast is best. Before I had my children I imagined myself bf for at least a year.

Breastfeeding made me miserable. Not "depressed", just miserable, completely miserable. So I bf my children for as long as I could possibly stand it -DS 4 months and DD 10 weeks. I liked DD much more when I didn't have to bf her, not proud of it bit its true. I can"t think of any kind of support that would have made it different for me personally, though.

Thing is though, for a lot of women being treated with a bit more realism would be being told:

"you might find this difficult but if you need help there won't be anyone there for you unless you count several health professionals giving you conflicting advice, frequently informed by their own prejudices and based on no evidence"

Terramum:
I suppose I could ditch the example and just ask:

If it's a choice between bm and maternal bonding, which is more important?

UCM: soupdragon was responding to me, not you. (hopefully she'll look back for my apology!)

Your assuming that bonding cannot happen between a parent & child after young childhood or babyhood?

very complex argument on several different levels.

you could argue that a lot of women are suffering depression after birth which hinders their ability to bf, thus increasing depression.

you can also argue that inability to breastfeed is tied up with maternal feelings of inferiority.

research also shows that most mothers experience feelings of guilt when not able to bf and wish that they had been able to perservere.

breastfeeding also helps with depression.

some research has also shown that babies of depressed mothers are not as easily affected if breastfed, due to the close physical contact and hormones released.

therefore i feel that successful bf is the best solution all round for a depressed mother and her baby.

i struggle with the concept that unsuccessful feeding causes the depression as we know pnd is hormonal but it can often seem a hurdle too high when everything is a struggle!

bookthief, I agree. But women would prefer to know what they are letting themselves in for with childbirth for example. No one thinks it's a good idea to say

"oh, it really is easy, hardly hurts at all, you'll be sloshing around in a birthing pool being an earth goddess and listening to your favourite song on the cd and you'll feel incredibly empowered and then your baby will pop out just like that!"

We know it's not like this but we're still prepared to give it a go. I think women are grown up enough to give bf a go even though they know it can be tough.

and I should perhaps also add that since making the decision to mix feed DS3 I've been much happier - he's still a demanding little monkey (and greedy with it lol) but I've realised that I was feeling "down" about it to start with as I had these wonderful ideas in my head of breastfeeding being the best thing in the world for baby AND me........but it wasn't.

And breastfeeding DS1 certainly never helped my PND.

I'm going to echo the other posters - the OP sets up a false dichotomy.

We know that postnatal depression, untreated, or unsuccessfully treated, risks emotional and behavioural damage to children. There is plenty of research on this, and the long-lasting study in the UK that follows the children of mothers with PND finds it affects the behaviour of boys until at least age nine (that's just one result of many). It could be life-long - we don't know yet.

We also know that not breastfeeding risks long-lasting effects. So treating the breastfeeding is also important.

Those two aspects are simple.

Where it gets complicated is where miserable breastfeeding (for whatever reason) is thought to preventing successful treatment of postnatal depression - and that can only be decided on an individual level. I have come across many women with PND for whom breastfeeding was the only thing they felt they were doing right .

The breastfeeder with PND may feel even worse if she stops breastfeeding.

It is up to the mother to work out where her distress can be improved, or not.

ds and I struggled to bf for the first 4 weeks. We were mixed feeding during this time (had been pressured to top up, in hindsight almost certainly unnecessarily, at the hospital). I felt so hideous doing it. We got him off the top-ups at 4 weeks (many thanks to MN ) and he is bf to this day, over 2 years later. I am absolutely certain, remembering how bad I felt during that time, that I would have gone into PND if the bf had not worked out.

I think there can be an extremely fine line between identifying that it's the way bf is going that is causing the depression and giving appropriate support to turn the bf round, and identifying that actually the bf itself is causing the depression. I wouldn't want to err on the second side - stopping bf before the mother is really ready to can be devastating for the mother.

And again, the lack of support and the wider culture are always extremely relevant here.

Thanks for retracting the 'bf n**i', btw.

I wasn't disagreeing m&j - I'm absolutely for women being told the truth and that it can only help to be prepared. I think what rankles is that in my experience, many women don't realise that when bf doesn't work out for them they have been majorly let down by those around them whose job it was to help not hinder.

Sorry, this is ot but just a real bugbear with me. It's not just that bf can be really difficult but that if you don't have access to expert support you're often being set up to fail.

"There is plenty of research on this, and the long-lasting study in the UK that follows the children of mothers with PND finds it affects the behaviour of boys until at least age nine (that's just one result of many). It could be life-long - we don't know yet."

I had no idea. I had undiagnosed and not treated (well except just plodding on through it) PND with DS1, infact I think it was only really diagnosed when I went to the Dr.s months after having DS2.

'I have come across many women with PND for whom breastfeeding was the only thing they felt they were doing right .'

Spot on, tiktok. I didn't have PND, but I did have enormous problems with having to go back to work (absolute necessity, I was sole breadwinner) and dh caring for ds while I was at work - it made me feel miserable and inadequate as a mother - and I cherished (and cherish) the bf as a special bond and something only I can give him.

That's interesting, I didn't know maternal depression had less of an effect on breastfed babies.

Also didn't know pnd had such a longlasting effect.

But I don't think I set up a false dichotomy, even if in many cases you could treat depression and carry on bf that won't be so in all cases.

bookthief, you are right to rant about that. I agree.

What strikes me from this thread is that bf means many different things to different people.

For some it's a goal to be obtained, bloodymindedly and to the detriment of any other responsibilities I might have had (me)

For some it's a source of comfort and strength during a hard time (Berolina)

For others it's another pressure that adds to the burden at a difficult time (Mazzystar)

For others it's easy and lovely from day one (lots of people)

All these are real experiences of real women who all wanted to bf.

I would love there to be more bf support but also for that support to recognise that bf is not a beautiful, peaceful, bonding experience for everyone. I got there in the end but even when I did manage it, I was always a bit because it wasn't quite as sepia-tinted as I thought it was supposed to be.

Certainly didn't do any bonding during this time - bonding with the tv more like! I have never spent so many hours on the sofa!

Hard to speak for anyone else but from a personal experience I believe FF -
I was adament that I was going to bf - tried my very best for almost 3 weeks - wasnt working well for me or dd, hated it, I was crying constantly, she was crying constantly until one day OH said "she wont be this tiny for ever, im worryed that you are becoming depressed, you are not enjoying your little girl" - I gave her a bottle and although I was racked with guilt, she appeared happier, I was happier, more relaxed and enjoyed eachother so much more - felt I was a better mammy automatically.

For a mother to be as depressed as you are supposing, then I would imagine there is far more at play than 'just' depression over b/feeding, IME. I certainly feel that the difficulties I had with b/feeding for the first 12 weeks with DS contributed towards the PND that I was most likely already developing/had developed. Although, the same with Hunker, I would have felt far worse had I not been able to continue, or if I had given in to the constant advice banded around to change to formula feeding. It become such a huge focus for me (which perhaps it wouldnt have, had I not been developing PND). You see, depression is pretty complicated, isnt it

As other posters have already said - PND and b/feeding difficulties, whilst one can affect the other, are two separate issues.

It could have been the case that had the PND been caught VERY early on and treated, I may have been less fixated on the b/feeding and been 'happy' to switch to formula feeding. Who knows.....? Or, maybe it wouldnt have made any difference to how I fed DS.

The facts in my case were that with much support from HV's the BFN, and a GP that recognised the correct treatment for thrush in the breast, the b/feeding finally worked out.

However, the PND continued to worsen, and wasnt diagnosed for a further 5 months. Once I started on AD's I began to feel much better.

Both can be dealt with separately, and both could have positive outcomes.

The obvious and straightforward answer that I suspect you are looking for isnt really there. Simply because there isnt a straightforward cause to depression.

However, there often is with b/feeding issues.

That said, both are often misdiagnosed, or missed altogether.

So, each situation on its own merit, I think.

vvv well put

Sorry been watching house.

BLK - that was pretty much my experience too.

I suppose my feeling is that a baby's relationship with its mother is the most important factor for its future happiness and that is, ultimately, more important than possible health benefits of bm.

Agreed there need be no conflict between these two, but for some women/babies there is.

And VVV for me there was a simple link between my depression and breastfeeding.

Forgot to say and I did have support from mws, hvs, bfcounsellor.

Sometimes all the support in the world doesn't make it better. Or sometimes the person does not feel able to access that support.

Just to clarify - I didn't say, nor do I know, if PND has less of an effect on bf babies.

But PND definitely affects babies - google on Lynn Murray's work to take just one lot of research. I don't think there's any research that differentiates ff from bf babies.

I feel very strongly that PND should be taken very seriously, for the sake of the babies as well as the mothers.

I agree with VVV
some women stop bf and it is a huge relief, but lots of women feel they stopped before they wanted to and have regrets looking back.
I think it is very rarely a simple choice between bm or bonding.
In fact I am not massively convinced about the whole bonding thing - I think it can be oversimplified. human relationships and human emotions are complex and change over time and from day to day for lots of different reasons or for no particular reason.
also, I do think there is something of a tendency to "sell" formula feeding as a cure all - it will make baby sleep better, cure colic, the baby will be less restless, mum will be less tired and get more sleep, baby will put on weight.
women who stop bf and introduce formula do not always experience all of these benefits and may be disappointed that a sleep "problem" for exmaple is not solved

I think the problem is and I am only speaking from direct experience of people I know IRL.
I know LOADS of mums who have started of bf and when they have found it difficult for whatever reason, whether it be struggling to get the baby latched on or cluster feeding, short gaps between feeds whatever it may be they say oh well I tried and move onto formula. I am aware that this is not the case every time again I am speaking from personal experince of people I know.

Women do not have enough information at their fingertips anymore about successful bf and in all the struggles I had with bf when dd was born not one HP told me I could contact the NCT or LLL. I was one of these women that for the first while pretty much went through the motions with my baby girl, I fed her but to me at that time it was a means to an end all it was, was food. I could have given up bf then but I didn't I believed I would get past that and that it would get easier and it did but it was never the bf relationship I had 2 years later when ds came along. In the long run I don't feel it has affecetd my bonding although at the time I probably did. I believe now that I did do the right thing I wanted to bf and I did and went on to do it more successfuly a second time.

In our society it is seen as more acceptable to ff than bf so when mothers do give up in the early days for whatever reason people pat them on the back and say oh you did your best. But most mothers with actual proper support and decent advice would actually manage to bf successfully.
I don't think that in this analogy it would be the bf itself leading to PND but I do think it is something that often gets the blame.

I believe my depression had everything to do with bf. I couldn't cut it and it increased my belief that i was a failure (''oh no!, if you don't bf your kid, he'll get exczema and all kinds of diseases, then he won't be smart and he'll become a criminal and got to jail. he'll end up in hell even!")

I had two midwives, hv and a bf counsellor and that didn't help. the move they kept trying to advise me as if it should be straightforward, the more depressed i became. he latched on 7-8 weeks later when i had just about given up. the whole hype and drama affected me and i am sure i could have spent the worry-time playing and bonding with him instead.
it ended well thank goodness and he's showing autistic tendencies and a whole new world of worries have begun. the bf debate is a distant thing and is not the best i can give ds1 as i'm now finding out. he needs a whole lot more from me in life.

With ds2, bf for 1 week and ff. don't care about the debate anymore and i don't think he'll be a crminal for it.

I still believe that breast is best but the spin on this whole natural thing didn't help in my case. More education and resources are needed to make it work.