How can my 5wo learn to latch properly

[rnicholson1990]

i cant get my 5wo to latch effectively, until recently we were doing fine (may not have been perfect in hindsight, possibly noticing now as she is bigger), she doesn't lift her head up to get a good latch and then gets really frustrated and screams and thrashes, or if she does get a good latch she then pulls back off and sucks just nipple. Will she be able to learn how to do it properly at this stage or are our chances gone? We are EBF so far and i really want to continue. Ive seen HV, been to support group and paid to see a BF specialist and we still cant seem to do it. Her weight is good

Have you had them checked for tongue tie? I ask because my little girl had tongue tie and it really messed with her latch. A midwife at a local breastfeeding centre spotted it and it’s improved no end since having it snipped.
Look up the flipple technique on YouTube - it’s the only thing which worked for us and stops her from having too much of a shallow latch. It will get easier as they get older and their mouth gets bigger I seem to remember from BF my little boy but it’s tough when it’s not right and can cause pain and Uncomfort

hi, the BF specialist said slight tongue tie but HV said not so im really confused. Thank you for that ill have a look now. Pleased things got better for you, hopefully we will be the same :)

Where are you based? We got Ann Dobson (google her if you’re near London she’s amazing) to come and snip LOs tongue tie - she is adamant there is no such thing as a slight tongue tie. If it’s causing issues with feeding then it needs to be dealt with. Ours was posterior so very hard to see but she showed me in detail how it was affecting my little girls latch. Also my nipples were very sore blistered and bleeding as well as balanced after feeds and totally mishapen How are yours?
Hope you get it sorted!

Im in the north east. We have has two people tell us different, one that there is a TT and one that there isnt, i just dont know what to do/believe. Nipples are painful when feeding, not bleeding/chapped (yet), misshapen after a feed. She can at times latch and i could jump for joy but she then just pulls back and clamps end of nipple in her mouth to suck i just cant figure out why and think i have tried every position and technique that i know

Are you bigger busted? My dd couldn't latch until I tried the rugby ball hold

Your best bet is to find some good quality face to face support. Your hv may have had as little as 6hours bf specific training in her whole career. Who was the bf specialist? It's worth checking their training too as some areas let peer supporters do all sorts.

Do you have a local la leche group? Or an IBCLC?

Someone who can observe a whole feed will be able to help you best but there's no reason you can't teach her to latch properly. That Said I agree with a pp ( and Anne!) there is no such thing as a slight tounge tie, some ties dont cause any issues but that isn't the same thing as "slight"

Hi thanks everyone.
The BF specialist was an infant feeding and TT specialist i paid to see privately. Im worried as im been given different info about whether there is a TT so cant be sure whether the TT is the problem and dont want to put baby through an unnecessary procedure.

I don't really have big breasts and until recently she managed well. Ive tried all positions and still no luck. My nearest LLG is not on until 4th Thurs in August but i went to baby cafe on Friday and a HV observed however baby was sleepy and didn't really want to feed so she didnt see the problem (the trashing, pulling off and screaming) she only saw initial problem with latch and trying to explain is so hard, she tends to not do it the only time i want her too lol! Never knew it could be this difficult. I have my 6w review with HV this Friday but i will ask them to come earlier. I dont want to but might need to express and bottle feed if things dont improve. Thanks for all of the advice

NCT sometimes run feeding clinics for free - our local one does. Check their website.

I was told DS1 didn't have tongue tie by two separate midwives and a HV. Even the tongue tie clinic I finally got referred to said it was only slight but when they cut it, they said it was actually really strong.

If clamping down maybe it is coming out too fast for the baby to cope hence the thrashing etc

Try expressing a little to stimulate the let down and let baby feed after the fastest bit has gone

Also try different positions like the laid back position and allowing baby to find the latch in their own

These things helped me

Call your HV and ask if you can be referred for breastfeeding support (or check all the paperwork you were given in hospital - there might be contact details in there). It's absolutely not too late to teach her to latch properly - took us a lot longer than that to get it right and I ended up feeding until just after a year.

FWIW I'd take the specialist's opinion on the tongue tie over the midwives.

So pleased to hear you got there after a long time too (not for you, i just mean that theres hope for us, i was worried it was too late).
I had thought about let down but even laying down positions and expressing first she does it.
Did things improve for you after TT snipped?
I had asked to see spexialist via midwife but still waiting to hear back so ended up paying private, i will chase them tomorrow though and i think ill go back to see the person i saw re TT and explain even after changing positions etc things are still same

Yes, it improved massively afterwards - pain disappeared and feeds were shorter as he was getting more at a time. It took a week or so to adjust

Might this article help re tounge tie?
www.drghaheri.com/blog/2014/3/22/rethinking-tongue-tie-anatomy-anterior-vs-posterior-is-irrelevant

I had 6 midwives tell me my DD didn't have tounge tie before I was then told by someone with better training that she had a mild posterior tounge tie. Even then though by this point DD was quite a bit older and I was in the throws of giving up so we just moved to formula after she said that it didn't need snipping. I didn't have any fight left in me. A friend sent me the above article recently.

Have you looked up any pictures of babies feeding or to look at the position? I also found it helpful and easier to feed rugby ball style because the latch was deeper.

Oh I forgot to mention that with DS2 (also had tongue tie), the biggest indicator to the feeding consultant I saw was that he couldn't tilt his head back at all to get a good latch.

Hi rnicholson1990, I had such dramas with my son who's now 12 weeks old. I remember being at the 5 week mark and being so worried latching was still an issue - it was adversarial at times! At the worst of times, it took 45 min to latch with screaming most of the time and my wrist aching from fighting his neck and he pushed away. Then the latch times decreased, then he stopped crying and now it's pretty automatic. He doesn't have tongue tie. I suspect part of it was because I have a very fast let down (at times when he unlatched a jet of milk would spray onto his face) and being very engorged (although not having big breasts by any means). Part of it was just the two of us taking longer to get used to each other than the average mum and bub.

Hang in there - 5 weeks is nothing; you can get there. If his weight is reasonable and the lactation consultant is pretty happy with your techniques/postures, I think it's annoyingly a matter of time.

Hi OP, my DD was the same. Bad latch from day one. She just sucked the nipple and I was in agony every feed. I saw a private lactation consultant, went to breastfeeding groups, watched YouTube videos... nothing seemed to help. But I kept going - using lots of nipple cream - and at 6 weeks DD finally figured out how to latch properly. It just clicked one day and it's been fine ever since.

I think the main issue my DD had was that she wasn't opening her mouth enough and didn't have her lower lip turned out.

Hi thanks for your message, i really hope we are the same and it just clicks all of a sudden, i want to continue BF so much. Her weight is really good so she is getting enough. Did your babies sometimes latch well and then pull off to just nipple, that seems to be our main problem

You said you’re in the north east - did you see milk & mums? I’d highly recommend and they will tell you whether it’s worth getting the tt snipped or not.

Hi yes i did, im going back thursday for a follow up

Yes, my son still unlatches despite latching well initially. In the early days, it could have been seconds to minutes for him to relatch again. Again, I think unlatching in my son is flow related. If the weight is fine, then don't worry, just keep going if you still have the energy to do it and it will improve noticeably. If it's anything like my situation, I would say even in the next week you will notice significant improvements.

If you're in the North East have you come across Breastfeeding Mams. No groups now until September but their phone line is open and they will do visits. You can find them on Facebook.
I'd keep trying with the hand expressing a little before each feed in case it's fast let down. You could also try leaning back as you feed.
In terms of position, do you know the 'CHIN' guidance? Hold baby Close, make sure their Head is free to move (i.e. support them across the shoulders rather than a hand on the back of their head), check their head and body are In line (I.e. straight - rather than their head being at an angle), Nose to nipple.
You are doing amazingly well! It's so tough in the early weeks.

thanks everyone. the infant feeding specialist came out yesterday anf said that positioning was fine. its just so upsetting as she cries and looks so frustrated and it just escalates from there to try get her back on is so hard, i really hope we do see improvement. Shes really really bottom windy too which must be from all the thrashing to get on x

Every time I saw a lactation consultant he looked like he was feeding fine. It's reassuring to know that your technique is good. My baby was and is so windy, but don't worry about it - babies are very flatulent and as they get a few weeks older it barely even bothers them. I wish I could show you footage from the early weeks or endless screaming to calm and automatic latching. It will get better. You are doing great.