High tongue latching - weight loss

[IceLemonGin]

DD2 is a week old, plenty of wet and pooey nappies. We have struggled with bf since birth - lost 11% birthweight on day 3 which dropped to 9.6% on day 5.

I fed DC1 for 16 months with no issues so know something is wrong.

I went to my local BF clinic today who said DD has a very anterior frenulum which is surrounded by structures beneath the tongue and told to go back in 2 weeks to review to see if they should take action.

In the meantime I'm to work on her latch but I'm really struggling as she constantly has her tongue in the way. I keep relatching to try and correct it but it frustrates her and she tires quickly.

I have large breasts so feels like I'm juggling. I'm so sore and feeding through the pain.

Has anyone else been through similar? Should I try get a second opinion or referral? 2 more weeks of this makes me feel anxious!

I think the suggestion is to pump around 8-10 times in 24 hours if you are trying to increase supply, I don't think it really matters when, but I would lean towards after you feed so you can improve your chances of draining the breast properly and avoiding blocked ducts etc (if the tt makes her inefficient she might not drain it so well herself). Pumping/feeding at night is important for increasing supply.

Don't stress too much about how much you are able to pump though- some people just don't get as much through expressing, it's not the same as the way a baby feeds.

The explosive poos could be related - if her latch isn't as good as it could be she could be taking in a lot of air.

I don't know about ds1's palate now- to be fair, I don't really know what's high and what's not, it was the lactation consultant who mentioned it when he was 4 months old, so I wouldn't know even if I looked! Was doing some reading last night though and something mentioned nipple shields and the way they rub the palate - we fed exclusively with shields for 4 months or so because he wouldn't latch without, and it was after we stopped (and fed without shields) that he started sucking his thumb, so I wonder if the way he sucks his thumb is a throw back to the feeling he used to get from the shield.

@TuckMyWin haha, yes I didn't mean a criminal osteo

Don't worry about how much milk you can get from expressing, its not a very good indicator of supply. Its not just about getting extra milk for now, it's also important for stimulating the breasts to tell them to make more milk for the next couple of days.

I would just pump after feeding for now rather than inbetween too, she's probably feeding really frequently at that age anyway and even more often is she's got latch issues. You could try swapping her onto the other side and then expressing from the side she's just fed from. It means you can express while she feeds and having her feed may make expressing easier and it can sometimes make her getting the milk easier too.

Breast compressions might help if she's tiring when feeding to get a bit of extra milk into her.

Sounds like you're doing amazing with the expressing and syringing into her and also with the positioning. Probably helps that you've fed before.

There are some good podcasts 'all about breastfeeding' and 'all things breastfeeding' they are American but have some really good info on them, there are ones about expressing and tounge tie. There is a good interview with Jack Newman on one of them. Quite good to listen to during night feeds

I was worrying about the amount of milk as my MW told me I should be topping up DD with 30ml at the end of every feed. Often I only get 10-20ml but can see it is slowly increasing.

DD was weighed again and has stayed the same. Her birth weight loss is 10.6% on day 8. Is that worrying? I'm starting to panic. She is being weighed again Friday so hopefully the top ups make a difference.

Had a lot of cluster feeding tonight, my breasts feel soft and empty. Makes the latch feel a bit nippier.

After the TT is cut, is it likely that I will need to continue pumping alongside feeding?

Thank you for the replies, appreciate it so much. Feels like I have cheerleaders!

30ml at the end of each feed seems a bit of a random figure. Your DD could feed every hour or every 2/3 hours so that would give totally different amounts of milk in top ups!

Also, the midwife doesn't know how much milk DD is taking from you. Some babies with latch problems may take more than others so would need less top ups.

Has she regained from her lowest weight? Plenty of wet and dirty nappies?
Speak to Milk Matters about the weight gain as they will be seeing it as a full picture (looking at the tt, latch, watching her feed etc).

A lot of tt cuts are resolved immediately so you wouldn't have to carry on expressing. Some are more complex. It also depends on whether the tie has caused tightness in her neck/shoulders which then makes positioning & latch difficult, that's why it's worth seeing a cranio osteo soon after.

I would guess as you are getting her seen so soon and you seem to be well clued up about her latch,etc it's likely you would not need to carry on expressing. Milk Matters will see you again if there are still issues. You should have an idea afterwards as you will know if it's still painful.

Only two more days to go

Her lowest was 11.4% loss, it is currently 10.6% so no gain which terrifies me. She poos every feed and lots of wet nappies, she's alert and pink. I had a csection and heard that can cause gain to be slower too

I'm hoping the cut resolves it and I can just feed as normal...but may be wise to continue to boost her weight. I have an appt with the osteo on Tuesday but I'm on the cancellation list for an appointment on Saturday after milk matters.

Thank you so much for your support, I feel so stressed but like you say...only a couple days to go!

kellymom.com/bf/normal/weight-gain/

This is good about weight gain/loss.

Keep doing breast compressions when she feeds as if she is struggling to transfer milk and tiring easily this should help get some more milk into her.

I understand why you are desperate to stop expressing! See what MM say but hopefully it won't be for too much longer before you can just breastfeed.

That's great you've got the osteo sorted. You're doing amazing sorting all this with a newborn and another DC!

She is definitely tiring easily, after a feed, I can still spray milk across the room. My supply has definitely increased. Pumping at least 1oz each time. The breast compressions seem to be working too.

I don't mind if I need to keep pumping for a while, although might need to invest in a better pump if it's for more than another week or so.

Ah thank you. Dd1 has been a little star. DH is a brilliant support too so I've been lucky. He has another week left off work so hopefully feeding will be sorted by the time he goes back.

Hope it goes ok today, let us know how you get on.

I had to express with my DD and I can't recommend the Haakaa pump enough. It's about £15 on amazon (inc. prime delivery!) and its hands free, you suction it on the boob you're not feeding from and it just does it's thing.

It means you don't end up constantly feeding or expressing, which is EXHAUSTING.

Good luck, I was half and half feeding and expressing for 8 weeks as she couldn't feed on an inverted nipple, but then she just got it.

Nipple shields helped me, but I know they're not recommended in case the baby gets too used to them. We were ok as DD had a 'normal' nipple to latch on at least half the time.

Hope today is useful, and you're feeling positive after your appointment. Hopefully all straightforward from here in

Ah lovely to come back to messages! Dd was weighed Friday and had gained 80g in 48 hours...phew.

We had our appointment with MM today, Charlotte is wonderful, no wonder people travel near and far to see her!

TT detachment went well, lots of blood vessels under DDs tongue meant it was rather messy but her latch felt different instantly! We had an osteo session straight after which went well too.

DD has been rather distressed this evening, wouldn't entertain latching at all but we have had a bath together and some skin to skin and she's had a good feed from both sides since...hopefully she keeps it up now!

Thanks so much for the support, it's very much appreciated

I've never heard of the Haakaa pump before flanders it looks impressive. I'm always leaking when feeding on the other side. Will save me from achy hands!

Fantastic! That's brilliant you could tell with her latch straight away. So pleased for you.

Charlotte is really good isn't she, she's known for being one of the best LCs. The midwife who comes from London to cut the ties is really good too. Charlotte will usually help you over the phone or do a follow up if you have any problems down the line (hopefully you won't!)

If you can, get a couple more osteo sessions booked in close together, just to make sure everything loosens up as it should and minimise the chance of any reattachment.

If you can face it, it would be good to put in a complaint about the midwife who told you she just had a 'short tounge'. No wonder so many women struggle to breastfeed. If you would have listened to her and not got your own help, you could have struggled on for weeks/months (especially when the milk supply stops being hormone driven and is driven by baby removing from breast). Things like this contribute to women thinking they haven't got enough milk when it's a milk transfer issue that can easily be fixed.

Sorry for the rant, just so frustrating to hear yet again such poor breastfeeding advice from HCPs.

Hope your DD is a bit more settled today and feeding well. Well done for getting it all sorted for her so quickly

Thank you for your lovely reply little DDs latch still feels a bit nippy but nothing like before. I hope it gets better as the days go on.

We have a follow up with Charlotte booked next week. I ended up texting her last night too as DD would not take the breast but plenty of skin to skin and a bath helped that!

I'm not sure DD is transferring milk effectively yet, my nipples are coming out flattened and I'm still able to spray milk across the room when she delatches. She is on the breast for longer stretches though.

I think I will make a general complaint once feeding is all sorted out. I would hate to think of anyone else being fobbed off like I have...especially a first time mum!

Brilliant you've got a follow up. Must be costing you a fortune with that and the osteo sessions!

What did Charlotte say about your DDs high palate?

That's good she's feeding for longer stretches, probably indicates she's not tiring as easily.

You sound really clued up and aware of her latch so hopefully you'll be able to find the best possible feeding positions for the best latch you can get for now (even if it's not perfect at the moment). Hopefully you'll keep seeing an improvement.

The follow up is free thank goodness. Can only afford one more osteo session really so a bit concerned about that.

I feel really down today. DDs has gained weight, she's now 7.5% below her birthweight. I know it's early days post TT but I was hoping she had gained more. I feel as though I'm in a never ending cycle of feeding, expressing, topping up and worrying!

Going to go to baby cafe Thursday to see what she has gained. MW hoping to pass me over to HV care next week.

DD is feeding longer and having more awake time so that's positive. My nipples are in much better condition too! I just wish I was having the same easy BF journey as with DD1.

Sorry to hear you're feeling down. It can be hard to have problems after having a lovely BF journey the first time around, especially as that was probably one of the things you were most looking forward to when pregnant.

You might only need one more osteo session, especially as you've had them so soon after the tt. It's hard isn't it when it's so expensive.

That's good your nipples are much better, shows her latch has definitely improved. Did Charlotte say anything about having to keep topping up? Hopefully it won't be for much longer as I know how exhausting expressing is ontop of feeding.

Try not to fixate on her weight too much, she is putting on weight which is the main thing and you are obviously checking she has plenty of wet nappies which is the main sign she's getting lots of milk from you. Some babies put on more than others, some will put on loads in one week, not so much in the next, etc.

You will get to a point where it's easy, it just might take a bit longer

Thanks yet again for your lovely reply! Charlotte advised me to follow my instincts when it comes to topping up. I'm worried about doing this and DD losing weight again. It's so hard to try not to fixate on weight as the MW is obsessed with weighing. Charlotte was shocked with how much DD has been weighed as it hasn't really given her chance to gain.

She fed loads yesterday, I no longer have to wake her for feeds. She fed every hour in the night too. I tried expressing in the night but couldn't get anything out via the pump but still could spray across the room by hand so wonder if she still isn't draining well?

Thank you again, I really appreciate the support

Hi, how are you getting on?

I'm not sure about the spraying milk but if it makes you feel any better, my friend feeds her 3 year old and sprays milk across the room every time her DD comes off so not necessarily an indicator of not draining. I have never leaked any milk and not had supply issues so not sure if you can always tell. I also had a really poor feeder and still
couldn't spray milk!
You probably know what's normal for you so might be a good indicator.

I would trust Charlotte over the weigh ins and top ups too.