OK who can answer this question for me - what does it REALLY matter if your baby doesn't "follow the centiles" or put on weight according to the averages....

[harpsichordcarrier]

because it seems we are obsessed with it and I don't really understand why.
If your baby doesn't follow the centiles in the first few months, then what effect would this have on development?
how can you know this isn't normal for your baby?
will s/he catch up later?
even if s/he doesn't, who cares? why does it matter? and why do we all get so uptight about weight gain?

olihan - sorry for the anguish those fools caused you

you say "It's terrible really, that I've only managed to bf successfully because of an internet forum" - dead true !!

people ask how i have managed bf for so long and i say "kellymom.com"

i didn't know about MN until ds was around 5 months old and i had fully cracked bf by then no thanks to the nhs

Harpsi, I'm pretty too. The only slightly positive thing is that the HV has obviously had some bf training since because she never once mentioned the f word when ds2 was gaining an ounce a week. Having said that, she never used the term 'catch down' and she's still obsessed with which line he's on, but hey, Rome wasn't built in a day.

If the govt is serious about improving bf rates in this country it really needs to completely overhaul the hv system, train them properly in bf support, not to mention making them accountable to someone when they give dodgy or completely inaccurate advice.

Mind you, I'm only as informed about bf and eaning as I am because of MN. Before I came on here I was of the (stupid) impression that hvs were health profssionals therefore they knew what they were talking about. Oh, how wrong I was!

I wouldn't have a clue since dd hasn't been weighed since the day after she came home. She's 16 months and in 12-18 month clothes and thats all I know.

I passed the HV at the surgery last week and she didn't even know who I was.

Problem is, HVs aren't trained. Well, they are originally, but they don't have regular training or continuing professional development. It's up to them to decide to open a journal occasionally and seems as if many don't bother. I was involved in some healthcare awards and some HVs were shortlisted because they'd set up a regular meeting where they could discuss professional issues and best practice, FFS!

couldn't agree more, olihan, accountability is key. every bloody person in the world now works to targets, why shouldn't HV's bfing numbers be published so that we can refuse to deal with the ones who are patently crapola?
and FTT, yup, been there, done that... so lovely to think that's written on DD's medical notes somewhere. [feels sick]

Oli, catch down growth is well-known, well-documented and the only reason HVs can have for not knowing about it, applying the knowledge and sharing it with parents is poor training.

One thing I would suggest: write to your PCT about your experiences. You don't need to be horrible about any individuals, but simply outline what has happened to you over three babies, and ask how far it reflects poor breastfeeding knowledge and support among their employees.

It worries me sometimes that the health service praises itself for 'promoting' breastfeeding, when 'promotion' means jack without the knowledge and training to make it work

Anyone else worder why they have to behave like a maverik, pass information word of mouth, scour the internet, mail order any required accessories, be diplomatically evasive to questions from health providers, develop a thick skin to comments...

...in order to ....

FOLLOW THE GOVERNMENTS HEALTH ADVICE

or is it just me?

PMSL kif

Did I mention the cult-ish meetings where people travel from miles around to gain an audience with a wise woman? Did I mention the dark whispered myths and misinformations?

Perhaps next we'll have national education targets - please contact your local freemasons for advice...?

Thanks so much for this thread and all your experiences.

One of the good things our hv has done for us is setting up a postnatal group and six weeks after it ended we still meet without them.
The postnatal group itself was a joke every other week as the hv was sooooo unprepared (showed us a video about how to change nappies and bathe lo's despite all our babies being over 12 weeks old).
Just trying to go with my instincts now.

kif - you are so funny - lol ! instead of the KKK we have the LLL

May be they should put the following warning on those baby boxes of goodies they hand out at birth:

WARNING: BLINDLY FOLLOWING YOUR HEALTH VISITOR'S ADVICE MAY SERIOUSLY DAMAGE YOUR BABY'S HEALTH

There is much that pisses me off about breastfeeding support, or rather lack of it, in the NHS but the thing that really gets me is the number of women I've spoken to or read messages from on here who think it's their fault that feeding went wrong.

Presumably it's easier to recommend a move to formula than fix the very common problems that it appears most women have when starting breastfeeding - particularly when these problems have not been dealt with early so there is possibly some urgency in getting the baby's weight up.

So, instead of admitting that the support isn't there and that the NHS has failed them, women are left feeling that their bodies don't work properly, hence the formula. Makes me so angry

shona - excellent point re. women being made to feel that their body is not functioning properly when it fact it bloody well is !

im due my third in aug and TBH i dont think ill be going to the clinics with this one, my dd was born way of the charts in length and they kept saying theyd never seen such a long [skinny ]baby .she never put much weight on and kept remarking she asn tdoing much with the centiles!!!and was exclusively breastfed..she loves her food and at nearly 6 yrs old is beautiful, tall, graceful.slim with long legs..totally proportioned though and very healthy..i wish people could learn from her eating habits..eat only when your hungry and eat only what you need..she dislikes dairy[who needs cows milk anyway] is not keen on bread and would rather eat a whole trout to herself with light vegetables or salad and pickles..doesnt like cakes or any fast food..unlike me that loves stodgy pasta things and lovely bread etc ..she will have days where she will eats loads of meat and others where i have to hide the fruit bowl and often find her in the fridge gnawing on raw carrots/sitting with a jar of pickles and having a great time..they should really look at the parents too as i was always the skinniest girl in school and basically ate when i was hungry etc so she obviously takes after me but i dont pressure her to eat like me..she s a true carnivore and and i`m a veggie....hv should really look at the family holistically to get the true picture of whats going on!!!!ahh that feels better

I think using the term 'failure to thrive' is awful. My partner became worried that she thought we were neglecting our LO, and worried that it was on our records too that we were perhaps starving her or not being good parents. We felt we were being judged as new parents by that very comment, when in fact what we were trying to do was what we kept getting thrust in our faces that Breat is best. Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love BF, still feeding at 7.5 months, but worry constantly whether the slow weight could have been prevented if I had given formula all along...I know really that is not true, but its always there. Needless to say I have not been to see HV for over a month as I am nervous each time I go.

I agree its down to the parents size and other factors too. Me and my DP are not big people, so its inevitable our LO is not going to be huge. I dont need my HV asking me if I am on a diet every time I go there, still like its my fault. And when my LO does speed up a little, no well dones, no comments to say that its all ok, just, well we still need to keep an eye. Why? She is wriggling so much you can just about get her weighed as she tries crawling off the scales, THERE IS NOTHING WRONG!!

Like many people here, I get sooo very angry when I think about how much damage and heartache of HV did by a few comments. Apologies for the rant!

So angry for anyone who has had the phrase "failure to thrive" thrust in their face.

A good HV will be regocnising and using the term "faltering growth". This regognises a wider range of issues - including the fact that this may be that particaular childs growth pattern. rather than immediatly looking for problems with parenting.

I heard 'faltering growth' from another HV actually who was great, she was a stand in unfortunately, she said the same thing. She also told me in no uncertain terms that I have a small baby, she will be a small child and a most likely a small adult and no amount of thrusting Formula in her face will change that. Get used to it. She also said that as a small baby she will put on less weight than a bigger baby as she needs less calories and can cope with less in her stomach. However she only stayed one week. Never to be heard of again since.

Ah yes, the joy of "failure to thrive". Words almost guaranteed to raise panic and dread in the hearts of parents everywhere. Not helped in our case by the dietician muttering about our (bright eyed, wriggling, vocalising and crawling little boy) "not thriving". I think that was worse, as it had moved away from being An Official Diagnostic phrase, and into being a description of actual fact. She might as well have said "Your child is starving" for how rotten I felt. A particular nadir in a grim period of terror about my baby's wellbeing.

It is hideous. So many parents feeling so rubbish about their (healthy-but-tiny) children. But however irrational it is, it always niggles away in the back of your head - maybe the pofessionals are right. Perhaps my child would be better off with formula / being fed through a tube / eating mars bars and chips...

I'm a 1st time mum - recently emmigrated to NZ. My daughter who is now 4mths is in 90th Percentile for height, 50th for head size and 25th for weight. She has been FF since 1mth as had a 'trauma delivery'and very sleepy baby (didn't have the energy to suck). You are made to feel so guilty for not bf - it makes me really cross, there are loads of dehydrated babies who should never be allowed to get that way due to some stupid nurses insistence that people bf.

My D has neve been a big eater and the stupid HV here said I should wake her up in the middle of the night 3am and give her a bottle - (she has slept through from 11pm till 6am since 6 weeks old) so I did and she was violently sick (just didn't want it) I was really upset and worried and took her to the Docs the next day and he said she was absolutely fine happy and healthy. He also said that babies are just like people and some days just aren't very hungry. He was brilliant and I am much more relaxed about her small intake now.

ps she started teething and went off her food also - herbal remedies whith Chammomile are brilliant as not only are they a natural sedative and anti inflammatory but also an appetite stimulant !

My HV told me to wean DS at 4 months & give him formula as he had fallen from 50th to 25th percentile. I ignored advise & am still exclusivley BF although I do worry about his weight but gut instinct says he's fine.He still sleeps through the night & is happy most of the time, think HV thinks he is misrable cause he never smiled at her & just looked down his nose!!!!! Dont go to the HV anymore cause for the 1st month or so she told me he was a porker( he gained 13oz for 2 wks)-I thought it was down to being a growth spurt but what do I know as a 1st time mum??!!Last time she saw him she said he was too small & I was to come back the following week to tell her how the FF & weaning was going now she says he is too small. Not been back since!!!

My daughters definitely didn't. Both born at 7 and a half pounds, gained 2 ounces per week from birth, ending up around 10th centile by 4 months. Guess what? They're still there, at 9 and 11 years old. They spent their first four months regaining their natural growth curve. We grow slow and long in our families, generally not hitting puberty until 15-16. Both my daughters are actually taller than I was at the same age, and I am 5ft 6 now, so am not in the slightest bit concerned.

The growth charts are relatively meaningless as they are based on average size of children, standardised for age. They do not take into account the very different growth patterns exhibited by real children, and the HVs are little versed in statistics, more's the pity.

If your child seems healthy, is having the right number of wet/dirty nappies, is broadly hitting milestones (I say broadly, because there again, every child is different) then try to fend off the people who would worry you. Mothers' instincts are rarely wrong either way.

MAN ALIVE!!!! i have read ths thread and am furious at all your HV's and I AM one!!!!
Have none of your HV's actually taken time to look at your babies and chat to you about how they are actually doing??? If i knew them (which i hope to god i don't - i would kick their arses!!) I can't believe some of the utter nonsense advice you have all been given - i am thoroughly ashamed of my profession - wish you were all mum's in my area then me and my colleuges would sort you out with SOUND advice.
ON BEHALF OF ALL THE DECENT HV'S WORKING OUR ASSES OFF I APOLOGISE...

derlor- I had a fantastic HV, married to a Ghanaian. She had spent some time living in Africa, and knew real failure to thrive and real delay. She had seen someone die from tetanus, amongst other horrible illnesses. She was the most wonderful, laid-back empowering, presence to have around. I really miss her, now that we've moved away. Her colleague unfortunately was not so wonderful, and did not have the imagination to challenge the bland statistics. It's a mixed bag, I guess.

My DD1 was on the 25th centile at birth and followed this line till she was 7 months (having weaned successfully at 4, as was the norm at this time). She then stopped eating properly, and starting tumbling down the charts. None of the health visitors would listen to me when I told them I was anxious about her...she often vomited and had dodgy nappies as well. One of them told me to give her chicken bones to suck on .

2 years later , someone finally listens to me, after noticing that she hasn't gained any weight for a year and after tests, we find out she has coeliac disease and must go on a gluten-free diet. So with hindsight things started going pear-shaped a few weeks after we introduced gluten at 6 months.

I know that most health professionals are not fully versed in coeliac disease, but I am still v. that it took so long to recognise that there was something amiss that required further investigation. I'm just relieved that it wasn't life-threatening and now that she is on a gluten-free diet, she has gained over 30% of her body weight at the time of diagnosis and grown 7cm.