How to get a deep latch?

[dollydaydream84]

DD had tongue tie,I had lipstick shaped nipples which were damaged so I expressed all day and fed at night with shields for 4 weeks. She had it snipped and I still get a lipstick shaped nipple when feeding without shields.

I'm happy to keep going with shields she seems much happier with shields.

However she rarely gets to flutter sucks so isn't getting hind milk according to health visitor. Her poos have been much more green since I've been breastfeeding her more in the day (rather than expressed bottles) and she's been more windy. All classic signs of too much fore milk probably from poor latch (I guess it's a poor latch even with shields?!)
I have watched videos, looked at diagrams, had a breast feeding peer supporter come to the house, tried the exaggerated latch and cannot get DD to get a deep latch. The support lady said I had quite short nipples but obviously have to work with what I've got! On a waiting list to see lactation consultant.

Can anyone offer any advice for how to get a deep latch, how to get Dd to open her mouth wide? Anything at all?

Thanks in advance

[MrsDeathOfRats]

I don't think there's any specific method.

Dd was a dream to feed so when DS popped out and was a lazy latcher it was a shock!
I used to constantly unlatch him and sometimes even wait til he would cry.

'Nipple to nose and the head goes back' was what my midwife told me. Never try to bring nipple to baby, let them come onto you.

Sorry, probably not very helpful.

[MrsDeathOfRats]

Just thinking more, DS used to take me just inside his gums. It would hurt and then he would draw me in.
I have had short stubby nipples and sometimes when he was finished they would be much longer and thinner!!

[goodenoughmum88]

Google exaggerated latch technique and you should get some ideas. I found pulling my LO's lower jaw down just before he latched on helped. Also have a peek on kellymom for help and advice. The fore milk/hind milk thing is really being disputed now. It may be more diet related but guidance also says any "Earth" shaded pooh's are ok. hTh.

[dollydaydream84]

Thanks guys I cannot do the exaggerated latch I just cannot get her to do it plus Dd won't put her head back. Best latch is when she cries as you suggested but still lipstick shaped! So frustrating. She looks great compared to textbook photos but what's going on inside is another matter. Will try and pull her lower jaw down. We both ended up tired and frustrated tonight :(

Good to know that about fore/hind milk. She also choked a few times tonight and threw up quite a bit so don't know if I had too much milk or fast letdown or if
It's latch related. Really don't know where else to go for help!

[DonkeyOaty]

tie might have reattached?

[Thomasisintraining]

Laid back breast feeding gave us the best possible latch given the circumstances. I found being semi propped on the couch so I could watch tv was the best set up for it as no amount of cushions in bed in the very early days replicated that. Once his mouth grew it sorted itself out much better as he could do the wide yawn thing.

[MrsDeathOfRats]

You've reminded me! I have a fast let down and while Dd loved it, DS was always startled by it. And would sometimes gag and then cry.
Have you changed position?
DS liked to be tucked under my boob at first!
I mean, I would hold him rugby ball style and my boob sort of laid across him (sounds weird but I have big boobs)
Then when he grew abit he loved to feed laying down.
Also I used to this tummy against my tummy, skin to skin, he loved that while feeding.
These things relaxed him and the more relaxed the deeper the latch went.

[MoreGilmoreGirls]

Have you tried La leche league? They have a telephone support line and website with lots of info. I called them with DS 1 who was a nightmare to latch (I too have stubby nipples) they were very helpful. Hopefully you'll get a consultant to visit you soon. Good luck

[Thomasisintraining]

Don't overthink on the fire milk hind milk thing and if fast let down is a problem you can elicit the let down, take baby off for a quick second and put them back on, use a face cloth or squirt your partner on the other side of the room while the let down calms a bit. Jeez I will never forget where you are now, but honestly though you cannot see it, it does get better.

[cookiefiend]

Look at the flipple technique on you tube

flipple

There are a few similar videos. I found it Helpfuk to watch each time I latched with dd1 for a week or do to ensure neither of us got lazy as it never hurt straight away.

[Thomasisintraining]

Also I used to this tummy against my tummy, skin to skin, he loved that while feeding.
These things relaxed him and the more relaxed the deeper the latch went absolutely ditto for me and like I say I found this worked really well on the couch for us.

[dollydaydream84]

I just can't seem to work out the flipple so it works

Thanks for all of the support, I have tried different positions rugby on the left and cross cradle best for the right to get best latch.

I like the look of laid back feeding but Dd just bobs her head and gets all restless looking for the boob.

Tie may have reattached iq I'll have a look in the morning that's for suggestion.
I was about to ring LLL this evening but then saw they are volunteers at home so thought I'd ask here first and try calling tomorrow. Going to ring Hv and see if they can do anything about getting me seen by LC sooner

BF is hard!

[goodenoughmum88]

It is really hard and don't underestimate how well you're doing. Take care of yourself too!
With both of mine we got to about 6 weeks and it just sort of clicked. Babies grow and learn really quickly, this is a new skill for your baby to pick up. Hope you had an ok night. Xxx

[AlrightHarry]

I had trouble getting my first to latch properly. Big thing that helped was squashing the aereola between 2 fingers (behind nipple) and feed that into baby's mouth like a flat envelope into a postbox. Hope that makes sense. Then they get more than just nipple in mouth.

Saved me a lot of pain.

Also remember its the baby that needs to learn to do it right, not you. All you can do is guide them. You're doing brilliantly.

[dollydaydream84]

Thanks for the support xx we had a very good night of sleep but still rubbish latch without shields. I will try the postbox method thanks x bought a feeding cushion today why didn't I do it sooner? Helped immensely for positioning!

[bobbinpop]

You could try breast compressions at the end of the feed to encourage her to have some hind milk. I think kellymom website has some good explanations of how to do this.

[HeyRobot]

How old is DD? I found my DD's latch improved just by her getting bigger. It was very painful at first and didn't really improve until after 6 weeks.

I have a lot of fast flowing milk so she's always been a lazy latcher but it did get a lot better when she was out of those first weeks.

[dollydaydream84]

Thanks bobbin I will take a look

Hey robot she's 5 weeks but I did notice dd1 got better at feeding as she got bigger so hopefully that will happen here too!

Mini update managed to get her to latch well on left in rugby ball position without shields for a few minutes and no deformed nipple! A tiny step but getting better

[squeezed]

Also had TT with DD. There's really good advice here. I found a big difference with the timing of putting her on. I would wait until her mouth was really wide then pretty much shove her head onto me. It all became about the timing and working out when to do it.
I lie back to help reduce the flow a bit. When dd was younger I would sit upright holding her head until latch was good, then I could recline and get more comfy.
Hope it gets easier for you.

[dollydaydream84]

Just updating in case anyone else comes cross this thread for advice. Saw LC today who was great. She myth busted some of the rubbish spouted by health visitors about ability to feed etc and really knew her stuff. Unfortunately looks as though a bit of DDs tongue tie was not snipped properly so she still has restrictions. In saying that she also showed me how to latch Dd without actually touching my boobs to "help" which actually means her latch slips. Will spend the day practising tomorrow as LC thinks we can solve this by cracking the latch. Will keep thread updated for others. Just to note she also said the thin shields available now don't have impacts long term on feeding like the old thick shields did which is good to hear!

[villainousbroodmare]

I experienced something similar in terms of oversupply, frothy explosive green nappies and a bloated wailing baby. A smart paediatrician put us on a 4 hourly schedule which calmed things down a lot; pity we had six weeks of "feed every time he murmurs" before that! The other thing that I did was to pump off 50-100 ml of ultrawatery foremilk before each feed, obviously trying to reach a compromise between encouraging oversupply and just ensuring that DS was getting enough hindmilk. I can't imagine that the latch is any different to access hindmilk rather than foremilk; I would have thought that the time on the breast though is key.

[CaitAgusMadra]

My DS2 had difficulty latching for the first number of weeks. One tip from our LC that really helped us: once he was latched and starting to suck pull back on his little chin with your thumb gently. Not enough to break the latch. It just helped him get his mouth open a bit wider and get a deeper latch and really helped my poor nipples

[Tumtitum]

Flipple helped me. We also fed with nipple shields for weeks and I saw a lactation consultant who said milk transfer was still good. I've not heard of the whole no flutter sucking thing meaning they aren't getting hind milk? I think that's rubbish sorry, I would think maybe your baby just doesn't comfort suck much or maybe you can't feel the flutter sucks because of the shields!! My DD is 6 months and I rarely feel her flutter sucking, only if she's falling asleep really. Sorry haven't read previous posts so may have repeated loads of stuff! :)

[dollydaydream84]

Just updating! We are getting there slowly, the lactation consultant was really helpful. Anyone else struggling I really recommend getting referred to one. DD feeds more without a shield than with one now and is getting a good latch on the right boob and flipple is working. Thanks for all of the help guys !

[TheHubblesWindscreenWipers]

I struggled horribly for about 8/9 weeks. Small lipstick shaped nipples, painful latch. I am pretty sure he had tt but it's not screened for in this country.
We tried everything. And then randomly on week ten it just stopped hurting, I have no idea why. I'd been encouraging him to do 'big wide mouth' and we'd been playing games opening our mouth/mimicking. He got that very young!
So I don't know why it worked but give it a few weeks more. Try every single time to get a good latch - I think I got a bit lazy with cluster feeding hell sometimes!
Incidentally my nipples are now permanently lipstick shaped (maybe they were all along, I can't remember looking) but bf is going fine. He's now ten months and I am so glad it worked out.
I think it takes some women a bit of time to get the system fully fired up (very unscientific view...) I felt somehow that it just clicked for both of us, but it took time.