shrinking baby-someone talk me through this please!

[spina]

I'm sure this as been done a million times before,but to make it fit to my scenario,here goes.....

DS2 was born on New Years Day.(8lb 6oz) We breast fed from very beginning and I put him to breast every waking hour for next few days.(as in all the time,not hourly!) He seemed very hungry and when my milk came in on Friday,he guzzled away happily at it.My latch is good. My iron levels were 12.something in hospitsl. We had a few nights of constant crying/needing feeding(?) and I've put him my breat loads. I'm getting afterpains after each feed,his poo is now yellow(but maybe a bit green-if you obsess about it-not enough hind milk) On Saturday night(Day 4) we were down to the identifiable pattern of two hourly feeds. Then dawn broke on day 5, he was weighed and lost 15% of his bw. So I've been advised that two hourly feeds are too freqent and a sign he's hungry. I should express and top him up.(advised to express bewteen feeds to get a back up in fridge)My blood has been taken again to check the iron. My latch has been questioned (and proven innocent)
I'm feeling quite low,but not stressed about all this.
(Background info,DS1 lost 20% of bw,due to milk coming in late,low iron,bad latch and uninterested feeder.he's still dinky and has a huge appetite)

What i'm wondering about is why is feeding ds2 less frequently and expressing in between(instead of b/fing my lo) better than two hourly feeds.
I've managed less than an oz express wise per feed. He fed at 9 last night with a half oz top up. I woke him(had been watching telly with him on mylap)at 12 to feed(only wanted one boob) so I put him to bed,expecting to see him again half an hour later. He woke at 5am. we feed for an hour. no top up. I had to wake him again at just before 10 to feed him. He is happy. content. still slightly jaundiced.poos.wees.

I'm battleing away with my expressing and attempts to cup feed as i don't want to bugger up our forst week of success with nipple confusion.

Can anyone talk
a)some sense into me
b) tell me I do have a point and "just" feeding him as and when will do the trick too.

I haven't experienced this but my common sense says just breastfeed - more natural, less faff and I can't see what you would gain by expressing. La Leche League or NCT would be able to advise better. If he is happy, I really wouldn't worry. Some people just are smaller than others - my ds2 is tiddly and skinny but fine. Good luck

Hopefully Tiktok will find this one soon and offer some more sense than I can! I wonder if whoever advised you thinks that the 2 hourly feeds mean your baby is just snacking and so not eating enough at each feed. It does sound strange to me though - my DD would not have lasted much more than 2 hours when she was this age (tummy the size of a walnut and all that). I'm sure she was still feeding fairly constantly, and surely this early on the important thing is to get your supply to respond to the baby's demand.

Also, I thought babies lost 10% of bw on average - which would mean, logically, that lots of babies lose a bit more initially.

Surely if it was necessary to express this early, the human race would have died out years ago...?

To me (no great authority, I know) it sounds like you are doing just fine.

I would ditch the expressing and just wake him up frequently to be fed

thanks .

i did ask dh last night what we all did before Avent. I'm all up for increasing my supply, but it seems daft and verging on difficult with a three yr old to care for too as well as eat myself at some point to do the repeat cycle of feed,express,top up,wash pump,sterilise pump. DS2 asked for an extra feed at 12:30 but it was a comfort feed.

Spina - sounds to me that you are doing just fine to put him to the breast WHENEVER he shows signs of wanting a feed. You sound like you know what you are doing.

The best advice any one ever gave me about bf, was a a friend who when I asked HOW OFTEN I should feed DS said: "FEED HIM WHENEVER HE WANTS IT"

Your baby sounds fine, I don't see the reason for expressing when the best way to maintain or increase your supply is to just allow baby to suck at the breast and allow your hormones to the work.

Expressing is bloody hard work, putting baby to breast is much easier !

Best of luck !

The advice is cr*p. My ds fed every 1.5 - 2 hours until he was at least 7-8 weeks and he gained weight in excess of his "percentile curve". I would call the NCT and I would expect them to advise to keep feeding on demand. Some babies just are more frequent feeders, I figure...

OK. having spent the last hour crying, I'm now going to admit(to myself as much as anyone else) that i am actually stressed about this and annoyed that the joy has been taken out of breastfeeding

The ammount of effort i have to put in to a measly half anoz of ebm doesn't seem worth it. LO was one week overdue(so shrinking to edd wt!) and except for the slightly yellow skin and the possibly(?)not quite yellow enough poos(does anyone know a site where i can colour check his bowel movements) he's a happy fast asleep bunny.

Spina, I think you need to talk to someone IRL about this - we're good but we're not that good and sometimes having a good old chat about it all to someone with their head screwed on can really help. Three places to try are:

National Childbirth Trust Breastfeeding Line 0870 444 8708
La Leche League Telephone Helpline 0845 120 2918
Association of Breastfeeding Mothers telephone helpline 0870 401 7711

My gut feeling is that expressing is stressing you far more than it's doing any good, and putting him to the breast every time he squeaks (and waking him up to feed if he's out for more than a couple of hours) will do the trick. But I don't know, so don't take my word for it.

Thanks MrsB.

You're right!

Thanks for the numbers. I was trying to remember in the chaos of my building site of a home where to find some of the ones you've listed. You've saved me a lot of stress.

I'm no expert but when dd was this age the MW's advice was that every 2 hours was absolutely fine. Dd was feeding every 1.5hrs-2hrs and was a similar size at birth to your ds (dd weighed 8lbs 4oz). The advice to express sounds bizarre to me.

Hi Spina - congrats on your baby!

I have experienced exactly what you're going through with 3 babies now - dd to a lesser extent, but ds1 and ds2 both lost between 10 and 15% of their birth weight.

Hopefully Tiktok will come along soon, or hunker, but a few questions I know they would ask;
Was he weighed naked on digital or springbalance scales? Same set of scales at each weighing?
How are his nappies - you say the poos are tinged green - how many would you say he was doing? Are his nappies good and wet? Is his mouth wet?
Is he alert during the day, and does he wake up for feeds, and feed eagerly, or is he sleepy and fall asleep during the feed?

Tha advice I had was to feed every 2 hours, AND top up with EBM - it is a real hassle, and I don't honestly know how much good it does, but with ds2 I got into quite a good routine with it (ds1 ended up having supplementary f/feeds, which I was very upset about). With ds2, I would express off one side, and a little off the other (in theory this made the milk he would drink higher in fat as the breast would be a bit emptier). Then I would b/feed him, starting with the side that only had a little expressed off, but then switching to the other side, keep switching till he's really not interested any more. Then give EBM. He would generally have a sleep at this point, so I would wash the b/pump, bottle etc, sterilise it and then it would be nearly time to start again with expressing! It was hard work, and like I say, I don't know how much good it did, but ds2, after a week with small formula supplements, was then exclusively b/fed for 6 months.

Other tactics you can try if he's sleepy are to change his nappy during the feed, lots of skin to skin contact during feeds - feed with both of you naked in bed, or in the bath, don't let him go longer than 3-4 hours at night, and remember the times between feeds are from start of feed to start of feed.

It would be good for you to get in touch with one of those numbers as well - some support from someone on the spot is invaluable, and they could perhaps observe a feed and see if there are any obvious problems.

Hope things sort out - sorry this is so long - I always empathise with this sort of problem having had 3 experiences of it!

Call a bf counsellor. I was told my latch was great by about 5 different healthcare professionals after 3 weeks in agony (awful blisters) I finally called the LLL. Very nice lady came round and repositioned my dd on the breast it was a joy from then on.

I also think no need to express but check with the the bfc too.

Many congrats too-- and don't lose hope. I know it's terribly stressful but it will get better if you get the right support...

thanks ts.

he's pooing very frequently. equal to number of feeds at least. wet nappies too. I'll check his mouth when he wakes from this little nap.

I'm thinking about feeding 2 hourly regardless of whether he's asking for it or not and I have to admit to being surprised to not be woken more often last night so he tricked me into a good night's sleep(perhaps he thought mummy might need it to get through the next few days/weeks)

if I do continue to express/top him up(at least for the next few days til m/w comes back) how much should I be aiming to top him up with? havn't a clue how much milk a newbie takes other than a boob (oir two) full.

Obviously I can only give what i produce but not sure if I'm getting extra stressed by small numbers of oz when he only has a bird's tummy anyway/
.

Someone once said to me that babies are far more efficient at getting milk out that expressing machines. If that is true then not sure why they told you to express..
I would just breastfeed really frequently (once an hour when awake)-- but I am not an expert...

If you do express, don't stress about how much you get - just give him what you've got! I think the theory behind the expressing is that it gives them calories without much effort on their part. And taking some off at the beginning of the feed supposedly means that the milk they get will be higher in calories, as the breast is emptier.

It is a real hassle though - if your dh is at home I would get him to do all the sterilising etc!!!!

The night feeds really are quite critical - don't believe anyone who says that if they sleep well at night then they are obviously getting enough milk - they really need those feeds, largely to get your supply going.

Nappies sound great - lots of poos is really good!

Congrats on new baby, Spina. Is his weight the only reason why you are expressing, and not just feeding on demand straight from the breast? I was thrilled to hear he had gone from midnight to 5 am between feeds last night! When my 3 children were babies, none of them regained their birthweight for a whole month. I wouldn't worry too much unless there are other signs of all not being well, esp as your baby was a good birthweight.

yep. just his wt. automatic pointy finger at mummy. in fairness since then i've begun to question the colour of his poo, but at time, i was able to describe them as yellow so mw wasn't concerne about anything other than 15% loss.

who gave you this advice? was it the midwife that you're waiting to come back?

honestly, a lot of health care professionals are not breastfeeding experts, not even a midwife. some have had excellent extra training, many haven't.

please contact the numbers given earlier, they are the experts.

poo update----lovely and yellow

will be phoning an expert tommorrow. will prob do a bit of expressing as long as not adversely affecting my b/fing. cannot do every feed. i need to get out sometimes and i have a three yr old to amuse as well.

spina - i don't agree with the advice you have been given at all. Sounds as though you are more switched on TBH. Nothing wrong with feeding 2 hourly - that is the best thing to do. Baby is much better at stimulating milk production than expressing. 15% weight loss in a baby of your DS's weight is not unusual IMO. Some babies take 3 weeks or more to regain their bi=rth weight. Yellow poo is a very good sign. Carry on feeding frequently as you are - no need to express and cup feed just now. Makes the whole thing too complicated. You know what you are doing

spina - for yellow poo! Mears, glad you saw this!

How are things today spina?