Mixed Feeding Question...

[Quootiepie]

read something on here about if I mix feed, im cancelling out the benefits im giving DS with the breastmilk. Is that right? Mixing has been abit of a godsend this past week or so, but if breastfeeding is of no benefit while doing it, there's little point doing mixed feeding, it would be better to chose one or the other? DS breastfeeds all night (so 3-6 feeds) and id say 1/2 his day feeds are breastfeeds aswell, if not more... some days he has more formula, just varies really.

Any info would be great!

Many Thanks xXx

Yes, I agree that it would be dangerous to present mixed feeding as a solution suitable in all circumstances. I don't know the answer to that one. It just seems to me that we are generally given the impression at the beginning that we either have to breastfeed (and aim to do it for six months) OR formula feed. If there was some way of explaining that there is a possible compromise, albeit with some big downsides, which could be adopted after 6 weeks or so, I think many women may find the idea of breastfeeding less daunting. And I can't imagine that anyone who had established breastfeeding successfully would then choose to introduce formula, with all the expense and faffing and health disbenefits, without very good reason. (Thought I'd use one before they disappear!)

I agree that all the facts should be available. Tiktok - you sound very pragmatic, and I just wish that more breastfeeding counsellors were. The advice in my area seems to be to offer a breast no matter what, but there are of course individual circumstances which may affect this. The truth is that offering a bottle of formula might enable an upset mother to calm down/get some rest/physically feel better/go out of the house once a week so that she can continue with breastfeeding. I had a circumstance where baby Plibble was screaming with thirst and my breastmilk was not doing the trick. She was drinking so much that she was constantly throwing up. It was stinking hot and I felt thirsty the whole time (despite drinking at least 8L of water a day), so she probably did too, and I could not constantly feed her 24/7. In the end I had sore nips and gave DD some cool water which sorted her (and me!) out. The local breastfeeding advisor's response to this was to tell me that I should never need to give the baby water and that I should drink more (ummm, how??). So the advice can be unhelpful. All the info was not available - why shouldn't I give my baby water as long as I knew she was getting enough milk? Noone could tell me, and the weather was very extreme this summer. It's not just breastfeeding either. Weaning age, sleeping-in and other issues are areas where the advice is presented in, I think, an overly simplistic, too black and white way. After all, very few scientific studies will conclude that one position only is absolutely right, regardless of individual circumstances.

Pitchounette has a point re the emotional side. The impact of breastfeeding on bonding is an interesting one. I guess the benefits are impossible to quantify - I mean, mothers who formula feed their babies bond just fine every day. On a personal level, having been very bad at pregnancy and birth (to the point where I felt indifferent to my baby after she was born- although that might just have been the effects of a difficult labour), I was really pleased when DD and I found breastfeeding pretty easy. Obviously it was grim when my milk came in, when DD had a feeding frenzy etc, but I really think that I could have ended up with PND if I hadn't had such a positive experience of breastfeeding. Now I can't wait to get my body back, though!

Im bf my nearly 4 week old son,but for my own sanity i have introduced 1 bottle of formula at night as he sleeps better with this he takes 4 ozs has no problem going from breast to bottle and vice versa.We are both happier me as im getting my sleep him because it seems to satisfy him more at night.The only problem it caused me was engorged breasts for 2 days spoke to hv just express it off and used a hot water bottle for the pain.Agree with tik tok i really enjoy bvf my son as its our bond no one can interfere or be ap art of it its just me and him,and i love it i love gazing at him when hes suckling and the lovely little noises he makes,surely thats what bf is all about.

Interesting posts, plibble and debby.

Plibble - you touch on an issue that needs explaining. Breastfeeding counsellors never give 'advice', or they shouldn't....that's not how it works. We explain options, and help a mother explore how she can achieve her aims, and we support her.

I have never 'advised' anyone to give (or not give) formula or water, though I have spoken to many women who have done so, or who want to talk about whether to do so.

Even on here, where you are not really in dialogue with women, I don't think I have ever 'advised' anyone - I might make suggestions on how people can tell if they are getting the right sort of help and I might suggest what they can do to resolve a situation but it's phrased (I hope) in a non-advice-giving way.

In your situation, where you say your baby was 'breastfeeding so much she was throwing up' I would explore that with you - was this normal possetting, maybe? Or if it wasn't, then this is not normal, and would need a medical opinion.

I don't know why the 'adviser' said you should drink more but she was almost certainly right about the baby not needing water. I don't think the odd drink of water will harm an otherwise healthy, thriving baby, though. The reason why it's not needed is that breastmilk is mostly water and anything other than breastmilk risks upsetting the supply-demand link.....as a one off it's not gonna do anything longer-term, however, so no real point in worrying either at the time or now!

You're right about situations being more complex than black-and-white solutions imply. That's what lies behind breastfeeding counselling - helping the mother find the approach and response that is right for her and her baby. If someone wants to give formula (or water) and feels that this is right for them (and sometimes when bf is going badly, there is a health case for giving formula at least in the short term), then a breastfeeding counsellor will help her work out a way of giving it that has the least impact on her choice to continue breastfeeding.

I was thinking about this in the shower . I think what it boils down to is this:

There are acceptable and non-acceptable reasons for introducing formula just like there are acceptable and non-acceptable reasons for using nipple shields (harking back to my other thread here, sorry). In guarding against the non-acceptable reasons (and quite rightly so) which may severely harm a woman's breastfeeding, the b/f establishment sometimes has a tendency to gloss over the former. This in itself can lead to women prematurely stopping b/f because they do not have access to all the information and help that might enable them to continue.

I think this is what I was trying to say when I started my other thread about the b/f literature many moons ago. There is definitely a very big need for pragmatism alongside idealism.

The test should be, I think, is this woman going to be forced to give up b/f if she doesn't try this or that compromise option? Perhaps the books should all have an envelope in the back - "Do not open unless you are desperate"!

Twinkle, can't agree, sorry.

The only person who can decide if there is an acceptable reason is the mother - because reasons simply do not divide into convenient categories of 'acceptable' and 'unacceptable'.

For instance, it may be 'acceptable' for a mother of a poorly-gaining baby to feed more often in order to increase her breastmilk supply. Another mother in the same situation may fine that 'unacceptable' because she has lost confidence in breastfeeding.

That's just one easy example- I could give loads more. Debby's 'acceptable' reason to give formula to her 4 wk baby (downthread) is to settle him at night. Another mother would find that 'unacceptable' because she doesn't mind the baby being awake and feels more strongly about sticking with breastmilk.

It's not for me to assess the 'acceptability' for either of them

Must get away from mumsnet now and get on!

I give up then! BTW - the non-acceptable reasons I was referring to were the "he's not gaining enough weight" type ones.

tik tok im sure if another mother had been awake constantly for 36 hours just feeding would find this acceptable too!! especially as it stopped me going stir crazy and feeling like a couldnt cope then made me wonder if i was on the slippery slope to depression which i think is a more dangerous feeling to feel than giving your child 1 formula.No one has the right to sit in judgement.Twink you are the childs mother do what YOUR gut instinct is telling you to your child will also tell yuo what to do read him or her.

i am also bf too all day he is feeding from me and all night its the 4am feed which is a bottle ONLY as i want my son to have the best which is breast.

Debby - I was absolutely not sitting in judgement ! that was my point! No one can.....what is acceptable to you is by definition acceptable and no one else has any right to say it isn't!

I hope you get the distinction!

Mothers decide - not me, or mumsnet, or anyone else!

Twinkle - the 'non-acceptable' reason you said was 'he's not gaining enough weight'....but to someone else that might actually be the only 'acceptable' reason!

I want to hand feeding choices and decisions back to mothers - they need information, support, some insight about the future and the consequences, and some calm space, plus the removal of barriers.

I don't think anyone should judge because we don't know what it is like to be in another person's situation. For some people, even being v. depressed is not a reason to give formula; other people think it's crazy to be depressed and refuse the break formula could give. It's up to them to decide what is important to them.

Debby, it's just not clear that 'another mother' would do the same as you! That's not to say you did not do what was right for you - of course you did, and you are the only person who can judge that - but what is right for you may not be right for someone else.

Hope that's clear

I breastfed exclusively for 3 months but then I just got exhausted, feeding in the evening every 2 hours for an hour at a time, while trying to cook dinner, etc. When my mum told me I looked a wreck I had to agree that I felt it, backache, exhausted and grumpy I was becoming very resentful about 'having to' breastfeed . SO I took what some people might call the selfish decision to introduce one bottle of formula in the evening for my sanity. I feel so much better for, am happier and therefore even more loving towards my DD!

I do feel that we are put under so much pressure by what I call the 'breastfeeding police' and made to feel guilty about not giving our babies the best. Surely a happy mum is just as valid for a baby? There also does seem to be a superior attitude from people who manage to breasfeed for ever!

Wavy - who is 'making' you feel guilty?

You are happy, you feel confident and content in your decision...how could anyone make you feel guilty?

Debby - in explaining my belief that everyone has a right to make decisions without anyone judging, I missed out on an important thing: support. I think maybe you needed an affirmation that the 90 per cent bf you were doing was brilliant, and I didn't say that, because I was too concerned to explain what I felt. And so you read totally the wrong thing in my post I am sorry.

I wish all babies could have as much bf as Debby's baby!

I agree with Tiktok that there is a difference between advice and explaining the options. Done properly, the latter is exactly what is needed and I like your point about handing control back to the mother.

I think there is also a difference between things which are facts - e.g. the proven benefits of breastfeeding which no sensible medical professional would dispute - and things which are opinions based on anecdotal evidence. An example of this was that I was advised never to give my baby a bottle "because then she won't want the breast", which turned out to be complete rot in her case. I just wish such things weren't presented as fact - this definitely worried me when I snuck in that bottle of water and I think would have concerned me too if I had decided to mix feed sooner.

Sorry i was feeding ds tik tok i didnt mean YOU sat in judgement it was a general comment i beleive mostly in what you say and have found your advice very good.Didnt take your post in the wrong way i was just generalising
Right im off now just had a fab book delivered games to play with babies so Kai and I are off to play xx

thanks, debby.

Sorry Tiktok - I meant the age old thing where doctors/HV's think formula is the panacea to all ills.

I agree that only a mother knows what's acceptable to her - if she finds it acceptable, then it is acceptable. I was talking about when people advise mothers to do/not to do this or that. And I appreciate that you don't advise as such, but doctors, HVs, midwives and the like do.

Ah, twinkle....then if we are talking about (some) doctors' and (some) health professionals 'acceptable' reasons for formula feeding, then you are in a whole different ball park

• baby's too big

• baby's too small

• baby's too sleepy

• baby's not sleeping enough

• breastmilk turns to water at x months

• breastmilk is too rich

• 'he's far too old for that'

and so on and on and on.......

There's a thread here at the moment - perfect example of an HV who doesn't seem aware of current guidelines or even what is normal in a baby of 5 mths old

To the utterer of these nonsensical phtases, they are all, no doubt, 'acceptable' reasons.

Pah, I say

Yep, those were exactly the kinds of things I meant when I referred to "non-acceptable" (or even UNacceptable ) reasons - meaning that they are factually incorrect and positively harmful. God forbid that I ended up sounding judgmental - I'm hardly one to comment on what is or isn't acceptable from the point of view of individual mothers! (I'm starting to see now just how difficult it is to get one's point across in the way it is intended!)