Next lot of advice needed in dropping ff to become exclusively bfing!

[RBH]

Thanks to everyone who gave advice on my last thread. I am now in the process of working out what to do next. dd2 is now 8.5 weeks old and 12 lbs. We went down from offering 6 oz bottles to 4 oz bottles and yesterday she had 18 oz of formula over 7 feeds along with the breastfeeding. I reckon this is about average. Today she didn't cry after her 8am bf so I didn't give her a bottle but she was hungry again at 10am so I gave her a bf followed by 4oz formula which she drank all of. I don't want to cut down formula too quickly as can't get her weighed til the new year but want to start dropping some bottles or reducing amount in them.
My latest plan is to only give bottles if she cries after a bf but also to totally stop the 3.30am one. I will probably end up feeding more at night in the short term but thought it would probably be worth it in the long run. Once that has settled, hopefully in a week or so, I was going to stop the 10.30pm top up, again because I thought it would be better to up the amount of feeds in the night when there is more prolactin. Does this seem to be sensible? Or am I trying to do too many tings too quickly? The easiest thing for me would be just to breastfeed constantly in the day but that would be tough on dd1 and from what I have read it sounds like night feeds are more useful in increasing milk supply. Sorry for the rambling! Mainly looking for reassurance that we will all survive this and that we will one day get to the point where even if dd2 isn't exclusively bf she is predominantly bf.

You're totally right RBH that night feeds are crucial in upping the milk supply, so if possible cut ff top-ups at night (it's much easier anyway IMO because it's "instant" milk with no faffing with bottles needed).

How long do your BFeeds take, on average? If your DD is crying after a BF she might just want to comfort suckle a bit more. I appreciate you have a toddler to care for, but if you think it's possible you could try letting her suckle a bit more if she cries after a BF in the day - she might just be crying for more physical contact with you rather than more milk.

Have you tried using a sling when feeding? This can mean you have some hands free (in theory!) to do things with your other child while feeding. You might say that breastfeeding constantly through the day is tough on DD1, but actually because you don't have to disappear to faff with bottles, you could say that by breastfeeding through the day as well you are actually able to spend more time with DD1.

Also, the sooner you cut the ff top ups, the sooner she will realise she needs to take more milk from mummy, she will take more each feed, your milk supply will up and bingo, there you are!

Good luck!

Also, forgot to say that whereas FF means you can schedule feeds by the clock, BFding is an entirely different matter. Don't get hung up on always BFding at the same time each day and for the same amount of time - it's a baby-led thing ideally and where possible you need to just go with the flow!

She has gone down from 35-40 minute feeds to about 25 minutes. I then try to get her to go on the other side for 10 minutes as I figure that still adds up to around 40 minutes. She gets a bottle when she is crying but I can't get her to breastfeed any more and have tried for 5 minutes, or when I am too sore to keep going. NCT lady said she was an ineffective sucker (mainly due to a cold) at 3 weeks but since she hit around 6 weeks her suck has got a lot stronger so my poor nipples are having to readjust! dd1 was exclusively bf til 5 months when she went onto food and a bottle at 10.30pm and I know that at some point she cut down on the time she took to feed but don't remember when. Trouble with giving bottles is that my instincts are all confused. With dd1 I would feed her and if she cried would offer her more food and then know she was just tired or grumpy. Now if dd2 doesn't want the boob I don't know if she is hungry and wants a bottle or is tired etc. Am getting increasingly cross with hindsight at the fact that I was told to give her so much sodding formula for so long! Especially as she has been over the 50th centile since 3 weeks and is actually creeping up that awful chart.

Forgot to add, scared to use a sling as boobs so enormous (38j!) that I have to support them as she can't stay on comfortably otherwise and the thought of her dangling by a nipple in a sling makes me wince!

don't know about FF at all, but my dd (12 weeks) regularly cries if I take her off the boob and after a minute or so she's fine

for her I think it's a comfort thing not just a food thing

it's so tricky isn't it?

good luck!

do you switch sides because the first boob feels empty?

if she comes off after about 25 mins, and usually goes back on for another 10, you might try keeping her on the same side. This would ensure she's getting lots of hindmilk. this might satisfy her hunger a bit more.

However, if she won't suckle after a bf then it's fair to assume she doesn't want any more. she's bfeeding fine, she knows what to do, so don't panic. Remember there are lots of other reasons babies cry other than being hungry.

What else to do you try to do to settle her after a bf? perhaps she just gets wind and this is what is making her cry? i'm sure you've tried that, but just a thought.

If she is unsettled after a BF I would start trying all sorts of other things to soothe/distract her rather than resort to a FF top-up. Chances are she's taken enough breastmilk.

And I'm glad you think the charts are 'sodding'. They are. Don't worry so much about what she weighs and how fast she's putting it on.

Yes the side feels empty. Although I am confused about that as I read that you can't empty a side. If I switch sides she will gulp away happily for a bit. Of course I then worry that because bottles are easier she has got lazy and won't work for hindmilk.
So different from dd1 who was much smaller and who I kept getting comments from the old hv like 'we won't worry about her weight..yet'! Never worried about her as she was just built like her father and was and is long and slim. This time round hvs are happy with weight etc but it is me that is concerned!

It's true you can never fully empty a breast. I would stop switching sides and make her work for the hindmilk rather than give her FF.

Don't worry about her weight. So long as she isn't losing weight it's fine. BF babies fluctuate a lot and that's fine. My LO (exclusively BF) was born on the 75th centile, shot up to the 91st at 3 weeks but then gradually dropped back down and now (at 15 months) is just just above the 50th.

Remember that the 50th centile is the AVERAGE - so it stands to reason that most babies will be on or around it!

Remember also that the charts for the most part are based on FF babies, not BF babies.

RHB - I helped a friend of mine return to exclusive breastfeeding when her DD was 12 weeks old. She initially had been losing weight, was admitted to hospital and started on formula top-ups after every feed.

What we did was express between feeds to increase milk supply. I showed her how to hand express which she found much easier than using the pump. We didn't worry about whether she got any milk when expressing - it was the stimulation that was important. She did actually get small amounts which she collected and froze. These small amounts soon mounted up. The formula top-ups were reduced by an ounce at a time, spread out over a few days at a time. My friend wanted to keep a bottle going because she was going back to work, so she gave a lunchtime bottle that eventually became EBM.

She initially did not want to wake her DD at night because she felt tired enough without doing that. However, despite expressing during the day, she still wasn't producing enough. Everything turned round when she started waking her DD in the middle of the night. She found that her DD fed better at night and she soon saw her milk increase during the day.

After about 6 weeks her DD was on exclusive breastmilk, continuing a feed of EBM at lunchtime. She then exclusively fed her until 6 months before starting solids.

It definitely can be done. Expressing milk boosts the supply which compensates for the reduction in formula. Good luck, it can be done.

How do you hand express? I truly hate using pumps hence the fact that I would rather be up and down all night!
Thank you Mears for reassuring me that there is light at the end of the tunnel! Think I should probably ditch the night bottles but keep all the day ones and reduce the amounts at least until I get her weight checked.
Am I right though in thinking that she may well drop on the chart slightly as breastfed babies tend to be lighter than ff ones? Just need to be armed with the facts in case it is dd1s hv at clinic instead of my nice one!

BF babies can be lighter than FF babies, but that's nothing to worry about.

Remember that as long as her height and weight are vaguely consistent, it doesn't matter if she's on the 9th or 91st centile. She's in proportion - that's all you need to know.

Rest assured she's not going to starve if you cut the FF bottles. I would try to wean her off FF by cutting one FF entirely, rather than reducing the amount of FF you give each time. I think that's going to take too long and actually she will probably adjust to being exclusively BF much sooner than you think.

Look at mears' anecdote - the whole process over in 6 weeks. Don't go so softly sofly. Try being a bit bold!

Good luck.

bit of info about hand expressing from www.kellymom.com

more info about hand expressing from www.laleche.org.uk

Thank you for those links. I will have a bath later and have a good practise!

Good luck RBH. Hope it's going well for you.