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Infant feeding

Get advice and support with infant feeding from other users here.

Original poster

Full up or not?

26 replies

noseynora · 02/12/2006 16:27

Hi, this is my first posting on mumsnet, but I just had to ask... how do you know when your breastfed baby has had enough milk after a feed?
Sometimes my DD has that "drunk on milk" look, other times not. Should babies looked stuffed after every feed?
DD is 4 months+, so you'd think I'd have this sussed by now, but although weight gain and development are fine she's very small for her age.
Would like to hear what other babies are like after a feed..

OP posts:
Original poster
noseynora · 02/12/2006 16:36

should have said in my first post, doctor had me doing some top-ups "to see if we can move her up the centile chart", but I feel sometimes I am force feeding her a bottle when she doesn't want it.

OP posts:
foundintranslation · 02/12/2006 16:41

at your doctor. If everyone 'moved up the centile chart' the chart would be different and there'd still be some at the bottom, who are in turn 'moved up'... and so on. If, as you say, there are no weight gain or development concerns, then I'm not sure what your dr's reasoning is, tbh. She's small. Some babies are. My ds (18mo) has always been in the bottom quarter of the charts - he's fine! He's just small!

I should think, as long as she's reasonably alert, weight gain is fine (as you say it is), nappies are fine etc., if she needs/wants more milk she'll take some more.

Original poster
noseynora · 02/12/2006 16:47

Well I'd agree with you but I think my breastfeeding confidence has been knocked a few too many times on this one, which is why I asked the question.
I worry I will be keeping her smaller than her potential if I don't follow docs advice (no offence to small people, I'm only small myself!), but she's actually off the bottom of the chart, although following it nicely I have to say.

OP posts:
tiktok · 02/12/2006 16:57

Nora, your doc is talking utter rubbish, sorry....if all your baby needs is extra calories (which is what your doc is saying), then you already have them, in your breasts. You could, therefore, if you wanted to, feed more often, but chances are your baby is already taking what she needs and is doing exactly what her physiology is 'asking' her to do.

Giving formula is a daft idea!

foundintranslation · 02/12/2006 16:59

If she's off the bottom of the chart, surely all that means is she's in the smallest 3% (?) of babies... and someone's got to be (ds has had a fair few excursions off the bottom, height-wise - but I know he's fine), haven't they?

LIZS · 02/12/2006 17:01

Sounds like you are doing fine without the need for top ups. If you're small yourself chances are your dd may be similar ! Our dd is also far smaller than average - someone has to be to make the charts statistically correct.

Emskilou · 02/12/2006 17:03

Is she happy? Doing those yummy mustardy bf poops? Plenty of wet nappies too? How petite is she? What was her birth weight?

I agree with foundin... if she wants more you will know about it and she will get it!!

You will most certainly not be keeping her smaller, so try not to worry about that, breast milk is the best food for her so you are doing everything possible for her and a fabulous job by all accounts.

I wouldnt listen to the gp, I went with my ds once for his 6 week check and she said I had to see a pediatrician urgently as his face was 'too distinctive' when I asked why and what she meant she said she didnt like to say, I was obviously upset scared etc, when I saw the pediatrician he was confused as to why I was there and at the gp for sending me there, upsetting me and effectively wasting an appointment. So what I am trying to say is we put all our faith into gps as they are all knowing but sometimes that faith is a little misplaced.

In this case mother does know best I think. Not sure if this helps but I get so annoyed with drs!!

lulumama · 02/12/2006 17:08

i agree with everything said here!

FWIW... my DD was exclusively bottle fed for almost 6 months...she wavers between the 25th & 50th centiles....she is built small...even at her 'heaviest', she is noticeably more petite than simialr aged babies.

so if your baby is meant to be small,, then breast or bottle,, that is what she will be !!!

don;t worry....if she is meeting her milestones , she is fine and dandy!!

Original poster
noseynora · 02/12/2006 17:24

Thanks for all your posts. I have been trawling through the net for months now due to the conflicting advice I get about dd, so I'm aware how top-ups can interfere witih breastfeeding which is why I'm not keen on them. She is very active and seems a very content baby so it's really only the charts that show a problem. It's the paediatricians at the hospital who are suggesting top ups with this extra high energy milk. She was 5lbs when born and is gaining about 4oz per week and has followed the charts now since about week 2. It is very hard to ignore qualified people isn't it when they have the best interests of your baby at heart. Sometimes wonder how much they know about breastfeeding though. One consultant told me the old "20 mins each side then top up"! Was a disaster, feeding routine was all over the place until I decided to go back to following my own instincs. Two months later however and it's different doc, top up advice again. Argh!

OP posts:
foundintranslation · 02/12/2006 17:33

4oz/week is fine, I think. And she was so little at birth (was she early?), it's hardly surprising she's going to be on the little side. (ds was 6lb 2 at birth, born at 38 weeks, so not a whopper either).

tiktok · 03/12/2006 00:19

How upsetting for you, nora.....I repeat, though, if the doctors think she needs more calories, then all you would need do would be to offer them in the form of breastfeeds

Why they don't figure this out for themselves, I don't know

MKGnearlyimmaculateconception · 03/12/2006 00:49

Formula is not a magic potion that will make your dd gain weight.

My ds was 100% ffed and he gained weight very slowly even though he took a a lot. At 16 months he's taller than three babies that are 4 months younger than him, but they all weigh more.
Some babies put on weight and metabolize differently.

Original poster
noseynora · 03/12/2006 12:21

She was born by section at 37 1/2 weeks, and was a very bad feeder at the start. Midwives practically force fed her by cup/bottle, so was a bit of a struggle to switch her to breastfeeding, but managed it over about 8 weeks. Shows it can be done though, see a lot of posts here with questions on that. Because of all the top up advice I've been getting she's never been exclusively breasfed, I've a habit of offering her a bottle with a couple of oz's after late afternoon and evening feeds, just to make sure she is full! I never force her to take it though. She certainly has plenty poos and wet nappies and although she's v petite she's as active as any other baby her age if not more so even. Foundintranslation - it's interesting what you say about everyone moving up the charts, I never thought on that. At 5'2" and under 8 stone, if I was plotted on a chart I'd be at the bottom of the scale too probably, so I guess she's maybe just got my build.
I think what I'm hearing from you all is what i felt myself, but needed to hear it from others. These charts definitely erode your confidence, especially when like me you had real problems at the start. I feel the more formula I give her the less milk I'll make for her and it could potentially make things worse. It surprises me the docs are keen to advise top ups without addressing the impact this has on breastfeeding. Think I'll just continue as I'm doing - I feed her on demand still, so really think she'd tell me if she wasn't getting enough, as you say Tiktok, she'd surely just take more or want more frequent feeds.
MKG - sounds like my DD is the same, she is further up the centiles when it comes to height and head size than she is weight - maybe she'll just be long and lean!
I can't believe your GP said that to you Emskilou - what a thing to say! I think I'd have punched him! I also feel like I'm often on the defensive about DDs "tiny face" - but no-ones ever said "distinctive" - just as well!
Thanks for all your advice. Maybe what the hospitals could do with is some breastfeeding counsellours/lactation experts?

OP posts:
jabberwocky · 03/12/2006 12:50

Nora, I know a bit about what you are going through. Ds2 qas born at 37+5 and weighed 5 lbs 3 1/2 oz. From the start the ped was insistent about "supplementing" with formula. The first couple of days I was able to resist. I kept telling them that a)I made "plenty" of milk with ds1 and b) ds1 had such severe nipple confusion from gtting a bottle at 2 weeks that I wound up exclusively expressing for 10 months The lactation consultant was furious with the dr. btw. We both knew it was nonsense.

On day 3, since ds2 had lost some weight (as of course the do) they had finally badgered me into it. But anytime we gave formula instead of a feed I pumped. As my milk had come in by then I was getting about 8 ounces per missed feed!

The ped was shocked that I had so much milk so I went back to demand feeding the next day exclusively on the breast - hospital had been advocating strict 3 hour feeding regimen - and he gained a 1/2 oz! Ped has now bowed to my insistence on exclusive bfing.

tiktok · 03/12/2006 16:56

jabber - please tell me such dreadful information and meddling from the doc was not here in the UK......

moondog · 03/12/2006 17:03

I've just been talking in disparaging terms about doctors on another thread.

God,all this crap about 'moving her up the centile charts'
Were these duffers asleep in Statistics 101 or wot????

They have obviously never heard of the bloody bell shaped curve for a start.

jabberwocky · 03/12/2006 20:39

You can relax tiktok . I'm in the US. Still appalling though, considering I had access to a lactation consultant every day - which I took full advantage of, btw - b/c we are supposedly getting more progressive over here about bfing.

Original poster
noseynora · 03/12/2006 23:31

Maybe if DD hadn't been my first I'd have spoken up a bit more like you did Jabber - it's horrible watching your 2 day old newborn having a rubber teat forced in their mouth by a midwife. Don't think I've ever felt so useless in my whole life!

OP posts:
jabberwocky · 04/12/2006 03:35

It's very hard when you are being bullied by medical personnel.Even though I knew I was right I still wound up compromising for a day

whensantagotstuckupAITCHimney · 04/12/2006 03:56

god, this makes me so glad that i stopped going to get dd weighed. we had all the advice to give formula to get dd's weight up and i'm afraid i complied, noseynora, and as a result my bfing never did get on track so we mix fed for 17 weeks. it was so grim i vowed never to take dd to the gp's unless i thought she was actually ill and i must say i'm much the happier for it.
she's my first as well, i know how utterly useless they can make you feel, NN. and then how unbelievably annoying it is to hear the doc say 'oooh, she's very alert isn't she and everything looks great, but can you just give her some formula as well?' ggggggrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. good luck with making your decision (although somehow i think you've already made it )

Tanni · 04/12/2006 05:59

just read the thread . If exclusive bf is what you want to do then its the right thing to do. Drs seem to forget about supply and demand. NV will suggest top ups for any weight loss to be on the safe side. My DD never dropped below the 75th but still I got the stern face etc when her weight gain flattened out. As already said the charts are for ffed babies and some babies are meant to be big and some aren't.

heavenlyghosty · 04/12/2006 07:00

I can feel a rant coming on and no doubt I will kill the thread (as I tend to be doing at the moment) but I am literally stamping my foot reading this thread ....

So, babies who are little at birth "let's move her up a centile or two shall we?" have to have formula top ups ... according to some medical professionals.
Babies who are big at birth (say, mine, for example) "You'll never manage to feed such a big baby all by yourself, you will have to supplement with formula" (I refused by the way)

WTF????????????????????

It does my head in, it really does!

It doesn't a rocket scientist to work out that with many children GENETICS play a huge part in their size.

My best mate is 5' tall, her DP is 5'8" tall ... her DS was on the lowest centile but happy, growing and thriving. She was told she wasn't feeding him well enough ... was put through tests and whatnot .... told to go onto formula etc etc .... she didn't .... he is 3 and a happy, healthy, growing (still little) boy ...
I am 5'7", my DH is 6' ... we come from tall families (I am the smallest in my family: sister 5'10", brothers all over 6', grandfather 6'5") and my DD has just been put through all sorts of tests because she is so tall (3 in Feb '07, on the 98th centile)

There have to be big babies and small babies to even have a centile chart ...

Parenting is hard enough without all this angst driven into us by doctors ...

Noseynora - your DD sounds like a fab, lovely, happy baby ... keep up the good work sweetheart and tell them all to take a running jump!

heavenlyghosty · 04/12/2006 08:53

I did it ... yet another killed thread
Sorry ...

bustifer · 04/12/2006 09:15

Well said Heavenly, just you rant away there, does the soul good.

jabberwocky · 04/12/2006 11:42

at ghosty's threadkilling ability. I killed my own a while back just answering your post!