breastfeeding - and sore nipples

[Pupuce]

I found breastfeeding very painful for the first 4 weeks and moderately painful for the following 2. I am sure that bad positioning was partly to blame but I think my son sucked really hard and I had sensitive breasts to start with. I did breastfeed him for 8 months.
I am now expecting number 2 and am wondering if any of you had a hard time the 2nd time around as well.... should I fear or prepare myself differently ?
Any advice most welcome.
Thanks

However breasts may appear to men is utterly irrelevant to their function for toddlers and babies which is to supply nourishment and comfort. I can't believe that breastfeeding rates have anything whatsoever to do with a society's attitude to breasts as sexual objects. Surely, it is education, support and the importance a culture places on a child's well being that are far more improtant. Australia has an excellent public health record and the higher breast feeding rates reflect this.

Obviously breasts fulfill a sexual role but I'm sorry but that is of course very different from suggesting they are "primarily" sexual objects.

I think that some it is to do with prudish behaviour, my friend ( who gave up b/feeding v early) said that it was a 'nightmare' trying to feed at the hospital when her dad was visiting -she had to shoo him away. I mean, I'm sorry but that seems a little OTT if she couldn't feed in front of her own father.... However I found myself being shoved in toilets and baby changing rooms purely for other people's feelings - that's British society for you, and it doesn't make life easy for the b/feeding mum even if it's managed to stick a plastic chair in the corner next to the nappy bin, big deal...

You say that there is a high no. who b/feed in Australia, Bloss, are there better facilities there?

Message withdrawn

Should have expressed myself better - just that I find the whole sexualisation of breasts in connection with B/F repugnant. Agree that it probably does have a subliminal influence but I always made sure that the clothing I was wearing (and I always had a pashmina type shawl to hand) meant that I never exposed any flesh at all when breastfeeding. Certainly there is an embarassment factor but still find to hard to believe that this could be so severe as to stop you breastfeeding alltogether - just seems a very strange mix of priorities!

To my knowledge, B/F facilities aren't markedly better in Oz than here and it seems to me that there is also a relatively strong undercurrent of "not in public" amongst certain parts of the population, especially in rural areas. I think the higher rates there largely reflect the greater emphasis placed on it by healthcare professionals.

As a general comment, rates for B/F seem to be highest in countries such as China and India where the facilities are limited but cultural acceptance is high. Interestingly, women as sex objects is also not a major theme in these countries!.

I have to defend your friend, Lizzer, who wouldn't breastfeed in front of her own father - I even found it difficult to breastfeed in front of my own mother!

I do agree that society (and this is a generalisation I know) does see breasts primarily as a sexual object. I was always very self-conscious of my boobs as they were always small. I hid them away under baggy tops so no-one would notice how small they were. I am a very private person anyway and very shy about my own body (another of society's traits is to convice us all we should have perfect bodies). I found breastfeeding in public very difficult indeed, and would always feed in private, even if it meant going to another room in my own house!

As I got more adept at bf I became a little bit more confident, so that when she was latched on properly I would sometimes venture out in selective company. But as I have mentioned before, I had huge problems with leaky breasts which made public bf difficult anyway.

This was not in any way a reason for me giving up bf, I just found it got too restrictive and I wanted to be able to rediscover my life, without feeling that I had this little baby attached to me all the time. What does it matter whether women feed in public or not, so long as they are breastfeeding?

I don't know what the facilites are mainly like down south, but here in Preston they are pretty awful (plastic chair next to nappy bin, one sink, no tissues, one hard pull-down changing ledge with no wipes) but when I complained they did try to improve things. We won't get better facilities unless we complain more.

I don't think that bf in public should be an issue, each woman should be able to do what she feels comfortable with. It's getting them to bf in the first place that is important, surely? Mothers have enough to put up with enough without being made to feel inadequate because they won't bf in public.

Lisa, I totally agree that mothers should feel free to bf in public or in private - none of us can do anything about the cultural baggage we bring to motherhood, and some people are better than others at overcoming it. The other side of this is that the rest of the world should grow up and let mothers bf wherever they or they babies want to, without making them feel they're doing something exhibitionist.

There's a great deal of hostility towards bf mothers, believe me, and not very far from the surface, either. Just ask people, your friends and family, what they think of bf in public. You'll find that very, very few have no reservations at all. They will say it's ok 'as long as the mother is discreet'; 'as long as it's not when I'm eating'; 'it's okay, but not when the baby is older than X months/years'. Some people are quite vehement, and they think it's 'disgusting' or 'ridiculous'.

I do think this has something to do with shame about the body, disgust at bodily functions, which is particularly Anglo-Saxon. There's also an Anglo-Saxon thing that says you must never draw attention to yourself.

All that's rather a bleak social context for mothers to choose to bf in public : (

Hi Lisa, I'm sorry I hope you don't think I was aiming that remark at you. I think it's totally down to the individual where, when or if they b/feed but just think how much better it would be if we lived in a society where it was totally accepted to b/feed where you like, whenever you like rather than placing restrictions on this because of other people's judgements. Personally I don't know how I would've coped if I hadn't had my mother's support from the start and I feel priviledged for that and somewhat in awe of people who've had to cope without breastfeeding being a comfortable, relaxed issue within the family and with my friends. I know my situation is an ideal and obviously cultural structures can't change overnight but Lisa, do you think that you will be find it easy to encourage your daughter if she b/feeds and not find it an awkward situation?

I didn't b/feed in public really till above 2 months when it was much easier. Yes b/feeding rooms are OK if you want to let it all hang out - but why not have the choice of that or public? Yes Lisa it is of course important that women should be encouraged to b/feed in the first place but the point is that the ease with which they can do it does actually make a big difference in them choosing to do it or carrying on.

Croppy - I wish people did prioritise their child's needs above embarassment of showing their breasts but they don't. I have spoken to friends who cite this as a strong reason for not b/feeding. Generally however they haven't known much about the health benefits to the child anyway.

Bugsy - yes breasts have a sexual role but my point was that this has become more much more important than their feeding role. As Bloss says Scandinavians are much more liberal with regard to showing their bodies. I am sure this is a factor in the high b/feeding rates in Norway.

Marina - if your periods are regular then that means you should be ovulating in which case you will be fertile. You aren't feeding much anyway so you should get pg no bother. You can carry on b/feeding throughout your pregnancy if you wish - there is no need to give up. If however you are fed up of it there is lots of advice on the LLLI webiste about weaning.

As for Australia, similar to Suew, I have seen women breastfeeding in various public places at times and I, myself, breastfed in public too. I was initially embarrassed about feeding in front of people but once I realised that my lifestyle would be seriously curbed if I refused to feed anywhere but in complete privacy (and I wanted to continue feeding) I just got on with it!

I have fed my son in front of every family member (including FIL who was mildly embarrassed the first couple of times but loosened up himself when no one else seemed bothered), in front of friends (male and female) and even in front of workmates (male and female), nobody seemd to mind at all. I have fed in shopping centres, coffee shops, in parks, on trains, on planes and even on the Manly ferry! I think I was fairly discreet (not topless or flashing anything around obviously) but didn't particularly try to hide what I was doing. I think most of the time people don't pay that much attention to other people and so didn't notice that I was breastfeeding.

I can honestly say that I never received any hostile looks or comments (or not that I noticed anyway!) and received many smiles from older women and other young mothers.

I know as a general rule Auatralian men are pretty into boobs, but I guess as (in general) our climate is warmer and we spend more time in skimpier clothing and on the beach, maybe we are more relaxed about the sight of boobs in public!

As for urban vs rural. The nearest town to our farm does not have any facilities that I would be happy to feed in and I refuse to feed in public toilets (would you eat in one!??), however, the next largish town (about 150 km away) has excellent facilities. I have never had trouble finding good facilities in either Sydney or Canberra, but mainly in large malls or department stores. As far as attitudes go, I live in a rural area and have never had any negative comments about breastfeeding. I spent a bit of time in both Sydney and Canberra while by son was feeding and also had no negative comments there. The only people I know who have not continued breastfeeding past the first few weeks (my sister and cousin) live in Canberra!

My experience of breastfeeding while out and about is similar to Chelle's. Except that sadly, I've never seen anyone else doing it in the UK.

Hi Lizzer, no I didn't think you were aiming that comment at me, I guess I just get rather emotive about that one. You wouldn't believe the cross comments I got from other bf mothers when I told them I feed in private, you'd think I'd just renounced the whole of womankind or something! Some of them have this feminist attitude that you SHOULD bf in public and that it was totally offensive to do it in private.

If my daughter wanted to bf her own children I would give her as much encouragement as I could. I think my mother is partly to blame for my own inhibitions, she bottle fed us all and is very prudish in her approach to things like that. Although I don't think she would be that bothered if I fed in front of her, more fascinated I should think.

I have seen plenty of people bf in public here in the UK. I never used to see it before I had my own, but now I see it all the time. I guess I just know the position now, and whereas other people might think they are just cuddling their baby, I know they are bf. So I don't think the attitude here is that bad. I never came across anyone who had anything bad to say about it. I think attitudes are changing and those who disagree with bf in public are in the minority.

As for wearing skimpy clothes in Australia, you should come to Preston on a Saturday night! Even in winter they wear little more than a bra and knickers!!

During my last visit to Denmark I saw a woman bottle feeding her baby in a corner my (Danish) SIL looked on disapprovingly and said "no wonder she's hiding, she's ashamed."

I echo Chelle and SML, I breastfed in public in the UK without any difficulty. I tend to be a prude and would not have breastfed in front of my Dad but could not care less about the rest of the world.
A lot of the time, I don't think people even noticed.

Ha ha Lisa! I know exactly what you mean about Sat nights in Preston - the scary thing is that was ME about 5 yrs ago!! I was asking you that question about whether or not you would support your daughter because I think that that's an important step in the right direction, you have broken that chain that may have gone on for a lot longer if you had been as prudish and unwilling to realise that b/feeding is totally acceptable, unlike your mother. Honestly, like I said before, I think that it's great that you even tried to, let alone continued with it, without it being the accepted 'norm' in your family.
I disagree that Britain doesn't have a problem with it - and I think that is why you got such a militant answer when you said that you didn't feed in public, it's a reaction to that attitude that, unfortunately, has become a bit extreme. My friend, while feeding on a train, got 'looks that would kill' -as she put it- from a mid 30's lady sat with her young daughter last year. I think there was a discusssion about this on another thread a while back and someone had said they were waiting with a caustic answer to anyone who approached, but no-one ever did! I think everyone now knows that it is pretty unacceptable behaviour to verbally attack a woman breastfeeding in public - BUT it doesn't mean that they're not thinking it and that's where the problem lies.

I guess I have never come across this as I never did feed in public that often. But I have seen other women feeding and it does seem to be on the increase, or maybe I am just noticing it more.

The bf message is getting across, in our hospital there are posters on every wall promoting 'breast is best'. Unfortunately, until the NHS diverts more money into maternity services, first-time mothers like myself, find it hard to bf with virtually no support from overworked staff. And I think that bf counsellors should be publicised more, I didn't know they even existed until I saw them in the index of one of my birth books, neither the HV or the midwife mentioned them.

I think we should all pat ourselves on the back for being so selfless as to do what we feel is best for our little 'uns, and to hell with what anyone else thinks!!

In June this year, I asked your experience with regards to breastfeeding number 2. I had had very "bad" experience pain wise when I had breastfead ds but now that dd was on her way, I was worried it would be the same all over again.
I just thought I should let you know that - in my case - the second time around was MUCH easier. I did have a bit of pain at the very beginning but within 3 or 4 days it was fine.
Some of you had mentioned that it was bad every time. Just thought I'd give some hope to others !

I breast fed my daughter until she was 12 months old (she decided to stop on her first birthday!) and after some initial soreness, we both loved it. I fully intended to feed my son, and found it to be a completely different experience. I also had the "Yes, he is latching on properly" comments, despite constant pain. In the end both nipples were weeping and bleeding, and let-down was taking over 20 minutes. Both mother and baby were sobbing with frustration and despair. After weighing things up I decided to bottle feed my son, a decision I never thought that I would make but thought was best for the whole family. I have felt guilty and upset about this, but feel I have made the right decision taking all things into account. I don't feel as though this will effect my bonding with my child and know that the decision wasn't taken because I am somehow rejecting him (this seems to be the subtext of some of the comments I have received). Surely the most important thing is to love and nurture your child to the best of your ability - regardless of food source. Are we saying that fathers are unable to bond with their children just because they don't possess breasts?!
Saying all that - I would still breast feed another child.

The research on breastfeeding's benefits doesn't really touch on bonding - difficult to measure this, anyway. If breastfeeding is miserable and painful, common sense would suggest this would have a negative effect on bonding. Breastfeeding counsellors and others rarely mention bonding when talking to mothers about their choices - I never do, for exactly the reason you outline, Frankie, that it implies bonding is not possible with bottle feeding, which is daft.

The clear disadvantges of formula lie are health ones, and anyone (health professional, counsellor) who looks at a mother with cracked and bleeding nipples and tells her everything is fine is just not doing her job properly. Constant pain and the s...l...o...w let down are all clear signs of poor positioning and attachment. Yes, there are some babies and some mouths and some breasts that make a good fit more difficult to achieve, but the vast majority of mothers who I see with sore nipples can be helped with simple amendments to their positioning, even after they have been told 'everything's ok'. How can it be ok when a mother is in pain?

I'm really sorry you didn't manage to achieve pain-free happy feeding, Frankie - I really hope things go better for you next time and you get the right help if you have problems.