Struggling to maintain supply, but now worse, struggling with baby.

[NumNumMum]

Sorry, it's me again. From earlier thread, "he doesn't want me"- I have been having problems feeding my ds bfs. Lots of big ff top-ups have diminished my supply and I've been expressing and trying to get ds to feed frequently to get things back on track to regain ds's interest. The awful thing is that the original problem, that I could'nt get him to accept my breast, has got worse. He will feed fairly happily first thing, or more reluctantly when he wakes too early from a nap and wants to go back to sleep, but the rest of the time he just refuses to have anything to do with it. Things are deteriorating to the point that as soon as he realises what I am trying to do, he pulls as far away as he can, and if I try to get him closer or into a feeding position, he cries and becomes more and more upset. He's even reacting to the sound of my feeding bra undoing. There is milk there on these occasions- a small squeeze brings some forth. I've even tried putting a little on his lip but he just fights me. I am in despair. I'm trying so hard to sort things out. Why am I struggling to up my supply when most of the time he won't even go there. How can I do frequent feeds? The pressure is making things worse. Expressing alone won't do it- I'm not good enough at it. I'm doing all this so I can feed him but he doesn't want to. He's getting so upset with me but the thing that I should be able to comfort him with is the thing which upsets him. What have I done? I would love to have that lovely close feeling with him but its having the opposite effect. Things are more and more strained. I'm beginning to wonder who I'm doing this for, if he doesn't want it. Am I being selfish? Just had a really bad day. Sorry to ramble on like an unstable madwoman.

Oh dear, you poor thing, how distressing.

I'm not familiar with your previous thread, so hope I don't repeat things that may upset you.

Look, firstly you don't need to beat yourself up. You are not failing your ds, nor yourself. It's really hard work, doesn't come to everyone naturally, and I say this having been there myself.

You've got one feed going well. Start from there, you've done it well.

Have you tried feeding lying down with no bra on?

Have you tried feeding in the bath (I did this today for the first time and it was quite amazing, so relaxing).

Do you bedshare? Can you try to do so, without wearing a pj top and with him in only a nappy? (Again, something I've just started doing - don't know how whether it will help but it's really pleasant.) Lots of skin-to-skin contact is supposed to help milk supply.

How old is your ds?

I really feel for you. without seeing you and the baby at feed time it is really hard to offer advice. I think you should phone your midwife asap and she will help you with this. You are not mad, you are not rubbish, selfish or any of the other things you feel.
You are tired and frustrated which is all perfectly normal.

Don't worry, I know how awful it is when they refuse and you#re so desperate to bf.

My ds started refusing to bf soon after we'd got him home at 8 days old (jaundice). Hospital had scared me into topping him up with a formula bottle on day bloody 3 when my milk was hardly in and, although I'll never know the reason why, I think he was finding bf tricky with his little mouth and the bottle easier. I was also never exactly the champion expresser. Basically for getting on for 4 weeks my regime was: try ds at breast for 5-10min - often he would refuse and lie in my arms crying ; top up with EBM or, if I hadn't been able to express enough, formula; express, which frequently entailed sitting there with this industrial expressing machine for 40min to get 60ml. There came a point, about 2 1/2, 3 weeks in, when I was getting pretty desperate and couldn't see it ever ending - I was desperate to bf and devastated at the thought I might not be able to. But then, slowly but surely, he started refusing fewer and fewer feeds, and then stopped refusing altogether (I don't know what changed - though I had started 'relaxing' about it as far as I possibly could) - when he was 4 weeks old he had his last ever bottle of formula and I'm still feeding him now at 17 months .

I know your ds is older so the situation is slightly different, but maybe my story can give you some hope that perseverance (however heartrending it is when he refuses) might work?

Whatever happens, I hope you don't lose sight of the fact that you've done really, really well.

Poor you . It's horrible when bf feels like a chore, but I'm sure it's not un-fixable. Are you in touch with a bf counsellor who will come round to your house, or if not can you go to a drop-in session? Your health visitor will know if you don't - dd and I (and ds and I, for that matter) only learned how to do it properly with a properly trained person standing over us tweaking the positioning. If you don't get the person-to-person support you need, please tell us whereabouts you are, there might be a MN-er in your area who knows where you can turn to.

(I should add at this point that MN was a fantastic help too - in terms of educating me about frequency of feeding, latch etc. And just for understanding the sheer need I felt for bf to work out)

Mostly the feeding that works is lying side by side, although he can fight and refuse that way too. He's four months and things were going really well up to about 6 weeks ago. Feel too emotional to face bf councillor. I know that's silly, but true. Know I should. Must pluck up courage, it's too important not to. I'm afraid now though- if I keep pushing ds it will just make things worse. Feeling really down.

Keep calm, offer, don't take it too personally if he refuses. The worst that can happen is that he will continue to refuse, the best is that he will, like my ds, decide to give it another go. I know it's hard when they're crying, but if he senses your upset he will probably get more wound up too.

WHAT ABOUT THOSE SILICON NIPPLE THINGS. PUT IT OVER YOUR NIPPLE SO HE THINKS HE IS GETTING A BOTTLE!

didnt mean to shout!! Ds had pressed cap lock key!!

That's crafty- and maybe worth a try!

It's alright to ask a BFC for help at 4m - I found myself doing so at 6m!

I wonder whether it'ss your tensaion he's picking up on , rather than ouright refusal - it fits, given that you say he feeds well at what is probably the most relexed feed.

Try the bath and the skjin-to-skin, especially at times when you wouldn't necessarily expect to feed, so that there's no performance anxiety, just, hopefully, a natural continuation of a quiet, intimate cuddle.

Even if he doesn't feed - you'll still get the sheer pleasure of the moment.

Thank-you, Prettycandles, and congratulations! Saw your lovely news! Things going better today, had a couple of lovely cuddles that ended as snoozy feeds. Tried skin to skin this morning, I think it did help. May try the bath, though he gets soooo exited, I'm not sure how it would go. Think you're right about the tension. Actually, fed him more today than I have in a while! Funny how things go, just when you think it's the end of the world...I'll have to see how things go tomorrow to know wether we've turned a corner.

numnummum have you tried feeding in different positions?
how old is he? Is he quite strong? I read a thing once about babies with high muscle tone being quite difficult feeders and my ds was remarkablysimilar to yours, he also used to arch his back to get far away from me when i tried to feed him.

from another site:

does she generally have high muscle tone, holds her head well and is very strong?

I ask as sometimes it is a bit of an ordeal to nurse these types of babies. Anything touching their feet will cause them to arch off the boob. It helps to keep baby as close to foetal position as you can manage. The rugby hold often works best, with you sitting straight up in a chair, baby under your arm supported by a cushion with her bum touching the back of your chair and her legs and feet going up straight in the air so that they cannot touch anything. This keeps baby curled up which will prevent the arching and pulling off the nipple. Gentle counterpressure behind the shoulder blades to encourage her to stay on and if she does slip off, delatch and try again. Quite often babies will arch three times before settling down.

numnum - please do call a breastfeeding counsellor. We are very used to mothers being emotional, and many times, a mother cries. That's ok - it's ok to find bf an emotional experience.

Skin to skin is great.....not just as something to try but something just to do, as much as you can, not as a great performance but as a routine way of holding your baby. Babies get lured back to the breast that way, I promise you

Just a couple of things:

Is he windy? my son won't feed if there is air in his tummy wanting to come out. I would definitely contact a breast councellor before you give up.

I also found with DS1 and DS3 (DS2 was fine!) that they didn't want me after a bath or shower. I think they needed me to smell of 'me' & I had/have to wipe a used breast pad over me .

I'm sure it's not these two things alone, but they may help you a bit.

Not been about- had flu, I'm afraid. In answer to postings- my lo is 4 1/2 months now and yes, he's very strong- he's a bit of a chunky-monkey. Have tried the position you mention but he gets cross about it and makes things more awkward than ever. He does have trouble with wind, and that does cause problems for him. Things do seem to be slowly improving. I'm expressing a little more each day, (though "a little" it is), I now have a hand pump which is better. Lo is feeding for longer in the morning, when he was always keen, but now also another couple of times in the day, mostly to go back to sleep when he wakes too soon from a nap. Oherwise I just cuddle him in a good position and talk and sing nursery rhymes until he thinks "Oh, go on then." Then he'll feed for a bit. Gradual improvement, though when he does fight me off it still gets me very down. I've cut down a couple of oz of ff from what he was having per day, so that's something!Maybe will contact bf councellor when ds is back at shool. Thanks, everyone.

Not been about- had flu, I'm afraid. In answer to postings- my lo is 4 1/2 months now and yes, he's very strong- he's a bit of a chunky-monkey. Have tried the position you mention but he gets cross about it and makes things more awkward than ever. He does have trouble with wind, and that does cause problems for him. Things do seem to be slowly improving. I'm expressing a little more each day, (though "a little" it is), I now have a hand pump which is better. Lo is feeding for longer in the morning, when he was always keen, but now also another couple of times in the day, mostly to go back to sleep when he wakes too soon from a nap. Oherwise I just cuddle him in a good position and talk and sing nursery rhymes until he thinks "Oh, go on then." Then he'll feed for a bit. Gradual improvement, though when he does fight me off it still gets me very down. I've cut down a couple of oz of ff from what he was having per day, so that's something!Maybe will contact bf councellor when ds is back at shool. Thanks, everyone.

Oops!