Bit of hand holding required here - 19 day old breast aversion after tongue tie release

[Monikita]

Just looking for some reassurance from anyone who's been through something similar. Despite having this with DD1 and reassured others on here, I just need a bit of hope that I can get DD2 off bottles and back to the breast.

DD2 was born after a very difficult birth for me (am lucky to be here and still in a lot of pain) but after everything I went through with DD1, I checked for tongue tie as soon as they put her on my chest.

She had an upper lip tie, anterior and posterior tongue ties which we got lasered when she was 11 days old (I thought she wouldn't have to retrain as much if she were newborn).

She lost 12% birthweight by day 5 so I'd feed then pump and top up. After the tt release she wouldn't bf at all (probably because she was sore) so have been pumping full time and using a medela calma teat.

I think she now has bottle preference and won't latch on. I tried an SNS today and it was a disaster. We've had 2 sessions of osteopathy (not sure it does anything).

I'm desperate to bf her - loved it when we finally got there with DD1 plus will be so much easier whilst I recover (my mobility's poor, DH goes back to work on Monday and I have a toddler as well).

Anyone got through something similar? How long did it take you? Every time she rejects the boob it breaks my heart

No, but I did relactate with DD1.

I found the following helped:

Skin to skin. We took a long bath together every evening. She began to relatch here before anywhere else. I popped her in a sling wearing just a nappy and me in a low cut vest. We co-slept with her just in a nappy and me without a top.

I did use an SNS (Medela). It was a total faff to start with but I did get better at using with practise.

Nipple shields. I used the Medela ones. She seemed really happy to latch on with them. They were silicone like the bottle teats. DD2 doesn't have a tt but I have oversupply. I am going to try latex teats with her in the hopes if slowing the flow as she won't accept the silicone.

I used the Medela Calma bottles which meant DD1 had to work just as hard at the bottle as the breast.

The Maggie Howell Breastfeeding hypnotherapy CD so I was very relaxed when trying to bf.

I hired a double pump (Medela Symphony) from the NCT as I ended a hospital grade pump to relactate. Once my milk came back, it significantly reduced the time needed for pumping.

Have you got RL help? The infant feeding specialist at the local hospital was invaluable for me. Have phoned a bf helpline? I found the LLL one excellent. A board certified lactation consultant might give you some more expert advice.

OP, I am in the same boat. TT snipped over 3 weeks ago. We carried on bf, but about a week ago DS got very agitated. The times when he did latch on, he wasn't really doing anything on there. Since then we have been mostly bottle feeding him, although he will bf in the middle of the night for some reason.

Expressing is so hard. I am doing it in the hope he will bf again, but I can't do it forever. I will probably reduce this in a few days time if things haven't improved.

stargirl, how did you manage to cosleep without getting cold? I would like to try that, but the room isn't warm enough to be naked, especially if I can't use a duvet.

We bought an oil filled heater for the bedroom so we didn't need to have the central heating on all night. It was set at 18 degrees. We also bought a king sized cellular blanket on Amazon. I put a fleece blanket on my lower half too.

DH slept in the spare room as he found it too hot for sleeping. I was also pumping 3 times overnight so it was quite disturbing. This was with DD1. I do not think I would or could do the same now with a toddler to care for as well as a baby.

Interestingly, DD fed better at night too. I assumed she was sleepy and not really 'aware' of what she was doing. Breastfeeding at night will keep your supply up. The overnight pumping sessions were always the most fruitful for me.

Thanks ladies. Yesterday was really difficult and I was really sick of pumping. She won't accept the breast at night - if she's asleep she just doesn't respond to the nipple on her nose/mouth - even with milk dripping all over her! We have been co sleeping skin to skin - pigsunited I wear a cardi or dressing gown open, stick DD on my chest with a cellular blanket over her and the duvet to my waist.

We did have a breakthrough today though - I didn't pump this morning when she had a bottle and I think I must have been just full enough when she latched on skin to skin a couple of hours later!

I kept switching sides and offering for about 3 hours (doing suck training before each boob). She stayed latched to go beyond the initial letdown (I think).

I have no idea if she got enough - my breast felt as though it was softening when she was sucking but when she came off it still felt quite full. I've given her a top up (she didn't take all of it so hopefully she got something from me) and have pumped.

It could all go wrong later so will definitely do the nightly baths. Think I just have to keep the skin to skin going.

She's also been able to stick her tongue out more since yesterday evening - don't know if that's the osteopathy or all of us sticking out our tongues at her!

pigsunited have you done any suck training exercises? They really do help with tongue mobility - even if you don't get back to bf they will help your DS when he starts solids (DD1's tt was only sorted at 21 weeks and we had all sorts of problems with solids - it took a while for her tongue to build up strength).

Glad to hear things are getting better monikita. We haven't made much progress here, so I have stopped offering the breast and going to concentrate on getting DS used to sin to skin. I think sometimes he doesn't like it, probably due to negative associations, so I am going to try skin to skin after he falls asleep during the day, nightly baths and hopefully cosleeping at night too.

I had over a month of just licking before a latch.

We've mostly done finger sucking. He isn't that great to be honest - sometimes does a good powerful suck but will frequently release it, and often just chews/gums on the finger. We did a fair amount of finger feeding too, but have stopped that now as it looks like he has an ulcer on the roof of his mouth. Are you doing any other types of exercises? I try the one where you move your finger along the gum from time to time, but he is less willing to entertain that.

DS latched on himself in the bath tonight, but I had to unlatch him, as he kept latching/unlatching and could see he was getting frustrated. Latched on again just now, but was sleepy so just fell asleep with my nipple in his mouth.

That's great that he managed to latch on, even if you needed to unlatch him - his instinct is still there.

This evening hasn't been great. Her latch is pretty crap (she just won't open her mouth enough), so despite there being milk she can't get a letdown.

Am pretty sure she hasn't got anything from the boob as she's hoovering up the top ups.

Still, my DH points out that it's still progress. We're also really making her work for the milk on the bottle.

I do the gum exercises but also some others - here's a good video of them vimeo.com/55658345 . I also pop her over my knee face down and get her to suck on my finger nail side down on tongue just before attempting to latch her. I get her to suck until she relaxes her tongue and I feel it come forward.

Monikita, have you tried expressing to initiate a letdown before latching on? This is what I have been trying to do, to make sure there is an instant "reward"!

I did alot of the same things as stargirl. co-bathing, pumping, shields, calma bottle etc. my DS refused to bf for almost 2 weeks after tongue tie correction at 3 weeks.
my sister, who had a lot of trouble bf'ing her kids, told me to just keep trying and that sometimes they honestly just need to get a bit bigger (mouths gets bigger and stronger) and I really think she was right.
hang in there!

Yes I' ve tried expressing (manually) to get a letdown and she either recoils if she's on or just ignores the milk dripping all over her if she hasn't latched yet. She's so stubborn!

Thanks nyldn it's good to know that it can happen. We did have a tiny bit of success today when she latched and sucked a bit when we were sidelying in bed. Going to try and replicate tonight.

DH back at work tomorrow but DD1 at the childminder's in the morning and my mum's coming over to help.

stargirl how did you keep your patience and motivation for so long? I get so frustrated and feel so rejected!

Gosh, it was hard. I have wept oceans over bf with both my babies. I am an innately stubborn person. I was angry that bf hadn't worked the way I had planned.

I phoned the LLL helpline a lot I found the counsellors really supportive. The biggest difference between bf DD1 and DD2 is my support network. It is now far larger. My older female relatives did not bf so there is a lack of knowledgable support.

I rewarded myself with choc raisins after every pumping session and every latch

Yup. Understand all that. Am extremely angry to have to go through this for a second time.

Will give LLL a call tomorrow. Have made some chocolate lactation cookies so they will be my chocolate raisins!

We had a bit of an improvement yesterday. I laid DS on top of a couple of pillows on my lap (a la Clare Byam-Cook), and he latched on and fed. Sucking was a bit erratic and the feed was quite short (and he did have a top up afterwards), but it is some progress. I am going to keep trying this, but its difficult now to now what schedule to use for expressing!

So glad to hear that. We had a bit more progress too. She's actually looking to latch but seemed frustrated this morning that there wasn't enough milk (it hadn't been that long since I'd pumped). And then this evening she stayed on for a letdown (she'd asked for a feed early and I didn't have time to stimulate a letdown first) and sucked and swallowed for a bit.

Of course I'm now worried because she fell asleep and wouldn't take the second boob or even a top up. Hopefully she's not really sleepy from being underfed (she has been having top ups all day).

Monikie, did you try dangle feeding? we're still working on feeding because we got such a late start. sometimes when DS is super frustrated and worked up, I turn down the lights, put a hair dryer on low to create white noise, lay him on the bed and dangle feed. He's more relaxed, spread out and receptive.

Dangle feed? Do you lean over him?

yes! my DS basically lays out like he's making a snow angel, he's so comfortable. it's also the best for clearing plugged milk ducts, which I get as he's still learning to feed efficiently.

Have you tried soya lecithin for plugged ducts?

kellymom.com/nutrition/vitamins/lecithin/

I haven't been troubled since starting on it.

No! thank you! I'll def look into that.

Yesterday evening we had a bit of progress and DD appeared to latch (albeit shallow) with little pain for me. She seemed to be able to elicit more than one letdown when I kept switching breasts but here's the weird thing - as soon as the milk came she'd stop sucking and swallowing and fall asleep. I'd have to wake her and swap sides.

Anyone else experienced anything similar?

Yes, I've experienced that. This is one of the types of feeds DS does regularly, along with the crying/pulling off/wailing feeds. It was tempting to think he was sucking for comfort, but sometimes it was so long since he last fed properly that I think it might have been stress - the lactation consultant told me one way that babies deal with stress is to fall asleep. Glad to hear you have had some progress though.

We've had a very good day today. Not sure why, but DS has had more bf than bottles so far. One good feed, and the others were all a bit erratic and panicky towards the end, but still that is progress.

We found out yesterday that unfortunately DS's TT has reattached. The lactation consultant is not keen to re-snip, as it didn't give much improvement last time. She is puzzled though as his suck is still a bit rubbish and inconsistent, so she is suggesting that I try to get referred to a speech therapist. At the same time, DS has been having similar symptoms on the bottle (pulling off, crying etc), so I'm fairly confident he has reflux. I'm going to mention it again to the GP tomorrow and see if he'll actually do anything this time.