hospital wanting to give formula to newborn

[Zerub]

I'm thinking about baby number 2, and starting to wonder about all the things that went wrong with dd. When she was born she was fed formula through a tube in her nose, for a week until she started bf'ing properly. My question is, was it necessary? Actually, since that is irrelevant now, the real question is, if I'm in that situation again, what should I do?

She was born by elective cs at 38.5 weeks - diagnosed as footling breech the day before. She weighed 5lbs 9 - they were worried about her weight and said she couldn't afford to lose any, but she was on the 2nd centile and has remained there (she's 22mo now) - so I think her weight was fine! DH & I are both small. She was also slightly jaundiced.

She fed in the recovery room at midday and again a couple of hours later. Then wasn't interested. Woke a couple of times in the night, had 2 sucks, went back to sleep. They made me express at 1am and she had 15mls off a spoon (I've got my notes so I've looked it up). At 5am they tested her blood sugar and said it was ok. At 11am she still didn't want to feed and we gave in to pressure and agreed to give her formula (I couldn't express any). So she had that off a spoon every 3 hours. That night I agreed to them putting a tube in her nose. After that I attempted to bf every 3 hours and topped up with formula via the tube. Milk came in on day 5. By day 6 she was feeding ok and we stopped the formula.

It was all quite stressful, we had to stay in hospital longer than I wanted, and I wish she'd had colustrum instead of formula (didn't want her to have any formula). And I wonder if she would have started bf'ing earlier if she wasn't full on formula? And if my milk would have come earlier if she'd been sucking more?

So should I have just said, no leave her alone, she'll feed when she's ready? Or what?

Well, I rather nervously spoke to the midwife in the day assessment centre this morning. Apparently, Worcester Royal Infirmary is not babyfriendly accredited but is working hard towards becoming accredited. She said all the same sorts of things you've said here, Mears, and said that they had a breastfeeding counsellor and 6 breastfeeding "buddies" on the wards covering all times. She also described some of the lengths they go to to help babies who aren't quite so keen feeders! Heel tests are generally not used. I was very reassured.

I am glad we had this thread and that I brought it up in conversation during my assessment today - it's a weight off my mind, so thank you all.

Thanks Mears (and everyone else)!

So dd was jaundiced, had an infection and couldn't stay awake for more than 3 sucks. But glucose was 3.6. So they should have treated her as high risk, kept testing every 3 hours, and I should have kept trying to feed, and then feeding her whatever I could express, if she wouldn't suck. And looking at Levanna's list of how little they actually need, I think I was able to express nearly that much.

And if her blood sugar dropped anyway, we could consider formula at that point (if she was still ill and sleepy).

Or could we have got a lactating friend to come in and donate some for us? Is there any reason not to do that? Hospital wouldn't have to be involved - friend could sit in my cubicle and pump into a sterile pump! If we only needed a couple of ounces it would be fine for friend's baby wouldn't it?

Interested in the answer to your "lactating friend" question Zerub because wouldn't your friend be producing full-on breast milk rather than colostrum?

Wouldn't that still be better than formula though?
I'm interested in the answer too, this thread is fascinating

That's wet nursing is it not? I would prefer this to formula if I had problems. A bfc told me that part of the problem in some asian cultures (Bangledeshi I think) is that when the baby is born over there it gets passed around the family to bf until the mothers milk comes in and to give the mum a chance to recover and they then usually bf no problems. But over here where the baby doesnt perhaps get passed around then the mother just thinks she has no milk and then bf fails.

Actually what you are talking about is not wet nursing is it!
Still the milk from a wet nurser isnt going to be colustrum is it. i'm not sure how I'd feel about someone wet nursing my baby though but I dont thinkl there's anything wrong with it. I'd just be v jealous.

Wet nursing is a whole different ballgame to cupfeeding some expressed milk! Ooh, I'd be so jealous. I remember discussing this with a friend whose baby was the same age as dd, when they were both 3 months or so. As in, if one of us looked after them both for a couple of hours, what happens if the other baby needs a feed? We decided that we were both quite happy (in theory) to nurse the other child, but would feel jealous of anyone nursing our child!. I do know a couple of women who used to regularly look after - and nurse - each others babies though.

But as you say, thats when they are both on full milk. Mind you, they don't make "colustrum" formula do they? So babies who are fully bottlefed get full milk from day one. And someone else's milk has got to be better than formula, if not enough colustrum was available?

Zerub - your baby, your decision. If you want to give your baby milk expressed by a friend that is up to you. I think we forget that the medical and nursing staff can advise what to do but cannot 'tell' you what to do. Some hospitals have breastmilk banks where the milk has been pooled from several donors and heat treated. The donors are screened for HIV etc.
However, you are capable of producing the milk yourself. It must be ensured that the practices in hospital are not causing more problems than they are solving.
Breastfeeding second time around is usually easier second time around and women often produce greater amounts earlier.

I remember many years ago asking another mother who had loads of milk whether she would donate some to a baby whose mum was having difficulty. She agreed and the other mum was delighted to avoid formula.

I personally feel strongly about this issue. For those mums who are happy to give formula it is not an issue. I would have created an absolute rammy had my baby been given formula at all. IMO there is no need for it in the vast majority of cases.

Fabulous! Good to know that breastfeeding 2nd time is easier!

I had a thought (wow!) about a friends similar experience when her DD was born. She underwent emergency surgery due to haemorraging (sp?) after her DD's birth, and woke later to find her DH giving her DD a bottle of formula. So, she wasn't even awake to fight the formula, and her DH knew too little to stand his ground in the face of the hospital and their policies........
I don't know how many others here 'leak' in the later months of pregnancy, but I do - copiously! I'm considering asking a hospital based BFC I know about the possibility of saving pre birth colostrum.....well, if it's there, it seems an idea to put it to use and a shame to waste it!
What do you think?

Never heard of that being done before Levanna. Interesting thought

You'd have to freeze it in thimbles though Levanna
One totally irrelavent thing that I was wondering after reading the bit of this thread refering to the benefits or otherwise of donated milk over formula is why there is no 'fake colostrum'available. I remember a while ago watching a daytime tv programme about a zoo with ds (exciting life we lead) and was sure it said that a baby camel that had been rejected by its mother was getting artificial colostrum. Or would this have been cow's colostrum? Any zoo keepers out there? Does anyone know if there has there ever been an attempt to do this for humans? Would it be completely impossible to mimic, I mean obviously they can't yet reproduce the antibodies etc. but what about the nutritional values? Won't be surprised if noone replies to such a random question but was just curious (and mumsnetters do know everything ).

The colostrum advertised for athletes and others is cow colostrum.

I have heard of mothers catching and freezing (or even deoiberately expressing) their leaked colostrum antenatally, if they know/think their baby may be born with problems and may need more colostrum - don't know of it happening in the UK, and actually, I can't think it would be of any benefit.

Came across this
colostrum

I presume the reason they get so much from cows is that the poor calves are not given any from theor own mothers. Humans just do not produce for the masses like cows do.

I personally would not like to see colostrum itself manufactured fro humans because it just could not possibly match the 'real thing'.

Haven't got chance to really post now but all I can say is - WOW you two are truly the breastfeeding oracles And I think I'd rather stick with the real thing too, much less faffing about (though didn't seem like it at the time trying to get squirmy ds attached while butterfingered with tubes here there and everywhere ) Thanks again for your fascinating info.

Tiktok, I was thinking it might be of benefit for if ladies find themselves in a similar position to my friend (mentioned in earlier post). I would have thought it would be more beneficial than formula in those cases (in terms of avoiding unnecessary formula feeds)? It might be an option, for people who leak anyway. (Hate seeing it going to waste!)

Yes, levanna, it would be better....but how many of us know we are going to be unconscious after the birth? In hospitals with milk banks, banked human milk could be offered instead of formula. It would also be possible for a woman's breasts to be expressed when she was unconscious....but I do wonder in your friend's case how long she was unconscious, and whether they could simply have waited for her to feed her baby

dd was born on time, by emergency section and was a good weight (8lb12), however, she was frantic to feed and would get to het up she would just keep bouncing off. My milk didn't come in for 5 days. The midwives suggested using a syringe to give her a little formula. I have to say that I was quite relieved because at least I knew that she was getting something, it also meant that we could learn breastfeeding together when she wasn't so frantic. 4 friends of mine have said that they would have persevered with BF is this had been offered to them, all they were told is, use a bottle so they gave up BF straight away. I certainly have no regrets - and was just relieved that dd was feeding and was healthy

Tiktok, then again, I think I'd rather it were my colostrum, than someone elses milk or mine through it being taken from me while I was out for the count. Ah well, each to their own! As I mentioned, I do leak a lot, so I really wouldn't see it as a great length to go to, even if it were 'just in case'. Thanks for your point of view though

Sorry tiktok, meant to acknowledge the possibility of them jumping the gun with the formula anyway....and yes, I think it's entirely possible

This reminds me actually of a woman I was involved with recovering from a general anaesthetic. She had twins and one was very small in need of a feed. The paediatrician had asked for formula to be given but her husband said that 'no way' was the baby to get that. He knew his wife would want the baby put to the breast whether she was conscious or not. So that is what we did. You do not need to be awake to breastfeed but it did feel a bit odd fixing a baby onto the breast of a practically unconscious mum. However, she was delighted when she woke up

......or, maybe I'll just write that (thanks mears!) into my notes .

my friend is having her baby early by c section at St Georges due to a blood clot cramping babys space in the womb.
Baby will be born at 34 weeks. Friend has been told that they source breastmilk from the milk bank for prem babies and that they encourage and support babies who are strong enough to suck of their own accord to feed whether mum is conscious or not, they ask your permission before the birth and go through the procedure with birth partner/hubby too
I went with her and it sounded like an excellent way to plan things, of course if you say no then the baby will and can be given formula.
Hope this is relevant sorry if not!

IFFF I ever have another baby then I will make sure I have this in my notes although dh would have no problem in telling the staff no. Def worth thinking about as it would be so annoying if you have decided to exclusively bf.

Mears, re: unconcious mum. i've had ds latched when not worthy of the term awake.
Everyone thanks for the chat. i'm new to all this (chatrooms that is) i struggled when ds born 6mths ago. nightmare of not regaining birth weight for three weeks. midwife not really b/f friendly. formula when milk not even in.i kept going with the b/f.was exclusive for months.ended up so stressed because he never put much weight on. long story short. he's on solids now gobbling every mouthfull, putting weight on, crawling and has never ever been unhappy. i'm still b/f now, even though i went back to work last week. i feel if i'd been left to it at beginning or shown/encouraged to express i won't have spent the last half year feeling it was my fault he was small (dh is 5'5 and i am too so he's hardly going to be a giant) and feeling selfish for wanting to b/f when formula would have sorted him out!!!
sorry about the disjointed rant. better out that in.

Advise to mums to be. learn to breast feed before babe arrives!make sure yr birth partner(DH, mum or whoever) knows what you want cos you'll be too shattered or unconcious to speak up.